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  • Are the Iron Hands Scottish or what are they? They seem to have a Celtic tinge to them regardless of their affinity with machines. Their primarch's story is similar to some Irish myths where Irish heroes challenge giants, slay monsters, etc... They're also divided into Clans unlike every other space marine chapter. I've heard the Space Wolves have a Celto-Nordic background, but I only see the Nordic side to them.

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    • there could be some Scottish insperation to the Iron hands i got no idea what a gorgon is in Scottish lore but it doesnt sound so far away from being maybe something Celtic to it. never the less they are kinda strange in their ways so to call them Scottish would be in the great crusade time, maybe they were a more cheering bunch so that they did have some Scottish in them.

      The Space Wolfs do i aggre with you that they sound only norse like. but i cant say i know much about Celtic culture to say anything opposite, but it may cary some resembelance to the norther islands of Scottland who were then under controlo along time of the vikings, but then again its norse in the backbone of the myth. so in the end i would mostly say that The space wolfs are from the Nordic myths and such.

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    • lol!! call them british!! then!! ALL HAIL BRITANNIA!!!

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    • if you want british look at the Raptors page - they're the bloody SAS now

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    • They strike me as more Ancient greek.

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    • the funny part of this im playing crusader kings 2 as the byzantine empire!! aka the empire of the greeks! or geeks! aka the eastern roman empire!! aka the roman empire! i want to rename it as the imperium of man! sadly no god emperor! :(

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    • in response guys to the inital statement, yeah, the Iron hands are both very Greek (Medusa for instance) but also very celtic (different clans that have been known to fight one another to see who is the best, and require very wise elders [usually dreadnaught survivers of Isstvan] to lead them in battle)

      but to Deathwings Byzantium comment, your right, they never had a God Emperor, but knowning the Emperors of the Romans, (specifially Constantine founder of the Byzantium, and [big breath] Caligula, Nero, Julius Caesar, Markus Antonius [mark antony], Octavian & Augustus Caesar [the last two are the same person]), who all thought they were gods incarnate, you could call Byzantium the Imperium of man, as it was the last stronghold of true civilisation until its demise in the 14th century.

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    • I would say the Greek part of their culture highly outstrips the Celtic culture, but thats not to say it isn't there.

      As for the Space Wolves: The Space Wolves have no Celtic parts to them unless you count enjoying to battle in the nude. Which a Space Wolf can like. But who doesn't like fighting in the nude? :D

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    • i picture the space wolfs as savage, but people who live in ass-freezing land would kinda learn that fighting nude is a bad thing. so thats a thing i think would stick even when you become astares, but they get kinda hairy, atleast the wulfen gets extra hariy, but even then they tend to keep their armor on. so yea i think we can scratch the fighting nude part lol. when its cold it sucks to be nude :P

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    • Tell that to Krom Dragongaze during his favorite celebration event, the Bladed Eye tournament.

      Fight with your fists on the peaks of Asaheim in the nude.

      Manly!

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    • Montonius
      Montonius removed this reply because:
      Violation of Personal Harassment policy
      23:51, December 11, 2012
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    • hm, that does tho only count for 1 special person, nude in cold places is a bad idea :P

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    • Nono, Krom is the best at The Bladed Eye. Almost all Wolf Lords partake in it.

      Hell, everyone knows dying in your nude with axe in hand and a flagon of mead in the other is the best death a Fenrisian can get. I certainly would like to die that way :D

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    • on a beach in mexico? yes. in a snowpile in 50- celcius... i think ill pass :D

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    • I live in Sweden, we don't have mexican beaches :3

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    • I think if you;re hunting for Scottish-influenced companies, best start with the Storm Wardens.

      Claymores, assault-marine specialized, craggy highland-esque recruitment world.  Yup.  Scots.

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    • (Fire Drake here)

      Yep your right, Storm Wardens are the most celtic chapter; not only do they prefer fighting (on the home world of course) in the nude; they also carry with them celtic swords; the people they recruit from speak celtic (Scotish, welsh, Irish); and they are quite honerable.

      One strange thing is that like the Iron hands, they seem to have large amounts of techmarines in their chapter, and highly technologically advanced warmachines in their armouries. their even highly regarded in Death watch for their ingenuity, and knowledge.

      strange how the more celtic the Chapter, the more highly advanced technology they have access to.

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    • so, the iron hands are like from japan?

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    • no

      The Japanese were excellent smiths, warriors and skilled in metalurgy, but had little in the way of metals on their islands; most things were made with wood. An Iron Hands would never be seen doing this, as they abhore organics as they see them as frail.

      Iron Hands also use a clan system with no real elites other than terminators, and dreadnaughts; whilst in Japan there is no real clan system, and they are devised in elite formations (Samurais, Ninja's, spearmen) based on ones place in society.

      there is one similarity, both Iron Hands and Japan both despise new technology, Iron Hands, because they think it goes against the omnissiah; and the Japanese, because they believed that customs and culture, and honour could do the jobs of any advanced technology (they hated America, but adored Germany [very odd])

      (all references of japan refer to pre WW2, imperialist Japanese Empire in caste system and culture)

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    • I reckon they are because wouldnt they be even more boring if they were all the same sounding no difference except in colour and tech.

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    • actually the Space Wolves are kind of a Viking, scot, irish chapter, there religion, there culture and names and event tactics link to Sweden and scotland and ireland

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    • only gaunt's ghosts are cottish..up to tattoos and bagpipes...

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    • I always thought the clannish structures was a nod to the ancient Greek city states more than anything to do with the Celts.

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    • would that not mean more infighting 

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    • I think their concept is that they are highlanders not Celtic necessarily.

      A chunk of the original Terran marines are stated as being from Old Albia, which is today Albania. Its a Balkan country traditionally made up of highlanders which is also close to Greece so there is that culture connection with the medusa motif and all that. The Dusk Raiders were the proper Albanian Legion though not the Iron Hands.

      In my opinion the Terran Iron Hands were probably made up highlanders from Scotland, southern Germany, Austria, Albania, Appalachia, and Argentina. Once the Empra unified the planet there is no reason that the leaders of these legions couldn't recruit from correlating cultures from anywhere around the globe.

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    • and to add to that the albia warriors where used  for a few chapters deathguard being one of them 

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    • Japan very much had a clan system, it did evolve but was present and played it's part. 

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    • Europe&NearEast-Legions-1-

      Here is something I put together inspired by this conversation. We established that of course the legions drew from everywhere on Terra, but here is a legions by primary country and culture of foundation and recruitment in my perspective.

      1.Luna Wolves- Italy 2.Ultramarines- France 3.War Hounds- Hungary 4.Blood Angels- Switzerland 5.Emperors Children- Austria 6.Imperial Fists- Germany 7.Dusk Raiders- Albania 8.Night Lords- Romania 9.Raven Guard- Croatia 10.Imperial Heralds- Spain 11.Salamanders- Algeria 12.Iron Warriors- Russia 13.White Scars- Mongolian expanse 14.Alpha Legion- Ireland 15.Iron Hands- UK 16.Dark Angels- Denmark 17.Space Wolves- Sweden 18.Thousand Sons- Iran

      Thoughts?

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    • Wow man, awesome work on the map. It seems very accurate to what is official, I'll be keeping it around

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    • Weeell, I'm spanish and no offence but (Although the Word bearers has been my second favorites for a long time)... first our medieval armies never where crazy hordes of zealots (thank you very much protestant history XD), and the militar formation more... historically caracteristic in our imperial times were the spanish tercios, which were a pretty harcore and adaptative force (and the only army with the balls of sacking the papal palace (Very catholic, i know)).

      I propose for us the Luna Wolves, and for the italians maybe the iron hands or Thousand Sons (in roman times) their fomations were the most mecanical of all (although i always thought of them as japanese, maybe something i read in the rogue trader lore (and remember the Imperial Sadows XD).

      But the election i have the most problem with is the iron warriors as Russia. Gentelmen they have to be Germany.

      Let's debate.

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    • Changed my mind, maybe Dark Angels for Spain we had militar orders and well... a civil war... a chapter divided in two sides.

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    • Cheers Divus. Glad you like it.

      Contrib 88. Hmmmm you have to understand that things aren't up for grabs like that. 40k has pretty much established quite a few of them. The Warriors being Russian seems fine in my book. Overstretched, cynical, bitter army. Main rival of Germany (Iron Fists are thematically very Prussian). Explain why that's not appropriate.

      And no sorry Spain doesn't get to be the Luna Wolves. Italy wins it comfortably. I gave you your second favorite what more do you want from me bud?? If you don't see that the Dark Angels are Protestants, you don't know the DA or European history. Not bashing your opinions just saying.

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    • Oh, so fast XD

      Just a justification... in other countries i get it, although you are getting pretty ramdom in most of your choices (unles you explain a little (no disrespect)).

      On history... is not just me. There are historians all over the world that point out the lack o reliability of "protestant" history against the spanish empire (the axis of evil of the times) specially on the inquisition. i think that i saw an american crash course in youtube in the matter if you want to look (dont remember the tittle but...). Thank you for recognize my lack of knowledge. 

      I'm not even religious. I don't give a crap.

      On the iron hands- I not speaking of superficial phisical apparence (We all can agree in that the game is mainly produced with white guys in mind and the "cretives" .... doesn't matter) I´m speaking of mentallity. People who shut down their emotions and try to be mecanical in war, to me it sounds more like samurai (And by the way... Raven Guard: ninjas and raven black samurai hair, skin like japanese actors...). The regular soldiers of the Thousand sons did the same crap.

      On the Iron warriors... ok maybe.

      On Italy... please define their warrior character, or characteristics because again since the times of their imperium... well their militar record is not the most straight. They surrender to spanish armies several times XD.

      Again this is just for fun.

      We all like the lore. My bad for speaking of protestants (not directly but...). The warhammer universe is fictional. DA are a fiction, and there is no mention of their spiritual ways in the lore or novels. I dont think they had. Dont put your religions in a fictional game. It makes the Emperor sad

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    • I always thought that the Thousand Sons were based in ancient Egyptians, with their scarabs and blades and all the magic.

       

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    • 79.153.236.223 wrote:


      I always thought that the Thousand Sons were based in ancient Egyptians, with their scarabs and blades and all the magic.


      Prospero is Egyptian culture leanings, however:

      Azek Ahriman is one of the Terran recruits to the legion and with him it is stated that noble families of Iran/Iraq (Achaemid Empire) were the ones who gave their sons as influx to the legion (A thousand Sons, chapter 22).

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    • 79.153.236.223 wrote:


      I always thought that the Thousand Sons were based in ancient Egyptians, with their scarabs and blades and all the magic.


      I kind of think there a mix of Egyptian and Roman culture

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    • Aldaron The Hunter 96 wrote:
      Europe&NearEast-Legions-1-

      Here is something I put together inspired by this conversation. We established that of course the legions drew from everywhere on Terra, but here is a legions by primary country and culture of foundation and recruitment in my perspective.

      1.Luna Wolves- Italy 2.Ultramarines- France 3.War Hounds- Hungary 4.Blood Angels- Switzerland 5.Emperors Children- Austria 6.Imperial Fists- Germany 7.Dusk Raiders- Albania 8.Night Lords- Romania 9.Raven Guard- Croatia 10.Imperial Heralds- Spain 11.Salamanders- Algeria 12.Iron Warriors- Russia 13.White Scars- Mongolian expanse 14.Alpha Legion- Ireland 15.Iron Hands- UK 16.Dark Angels- Denmark 17.Space Wolves- Sweden 18.Thousand Sons- Iran

      Thoughts?

      Space wolves are not just swedish there a mix of scottish, irish and norse culture so just saying sweden is not completely correct

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    • last time I checked, the scottish did not go on pillaging raids with dragonboats... that was a scandinavian thing.

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    • Aldaron The Hunter 96 wrote:
      Europe&NearEast-Legions-1-

      Here is something I put together inspired by this conversation. We established that of course the legions drew from everywhere on Terra, but here is a legions by primary country and culture of foundation and recruitment in my perspective.

      1.Luna Wolves- Italy 2.Ultramarines- France 3.War Hounds- Hungary 4.Blood Angels- Switzerland 5.Emperors Children- Austria 6.Imperial Fists- Germany 7.Dusk Raiders- Albania 8.Night Lords- Romania 9.Raven Guard- Croatia 10.Imperial Heralds- Spain 11.Salamanders- Algeria 12.Iron Warriors- Russia 13.White Scars- Mongolian expanse 14.Alpha Legion- Ireland 15.Iron Hands- UK 16.Dark Angels- Denmark 17.Space Wolves- Sweden 18.Thousand Sons- Iran

      Thoughts?


      Space Wolves being Swedish... Aren't the Swedes descended from the vikinh equivalent of hippies? AKA the Russ? I could see Denmark, Norway, maybe even Finland, but Sweden?

      I also don't think the Blood Angels would be Swiss, the defensive nature of Sweden seems at odds with the assault tactics of the BAs, maybe they share Romania with the Night Lords?

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    • Sup Hereticalthoughts it's been a while bro.

      Well as you probably know the three Viking nations were Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. I already associated Denmark with the Dark Angels for a number of reasons, and thus I chose Sweden for the SW. It conquered much more than Norway, and obviously reflecting the rivalry of the SW and DA which is quite similar to Denmark and Sweden (at that time). Also the DA are much more medieval and civilized looking than the SW which was the case for Denmark over Sweden as well. Also the protestant reformation in Denmark was very strong, while Sweden was always half pagan. Fins were not Vikings. Sweden is a good fit in my view.

      For the Blood Angels. Well I'm not going to have two legions in one country that's for sure. The Blood Angels are quite isolationists. They are very cultured, with a western Europe aesthetic, respecting art and glamor, not fitting of the historically more brutal Balkans. They also rely on small but well equipped forces since, like the Swiss, they are dying off. (sorry if your Swiss) They are also quite small, so they don't get to be France or something.....Their assault tactics are not what defines them for me you see. Switzerland is a good fit in my view.

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    • Sliest117 "We established that of course the legions drew from everywhere on Terra, but here is a legions by primary country and culture of foundation and recruitment in my perspective."

      You missed this....

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    • 79.153.236.223 wrote: Oh, so fast XD ... We all like the lore. My bad for speaking of protestants (not directly but...). The warhammer universe is fictional. DA are a fiction, and there is no mention of their spiritual ways in the lore or novels. I dont think they had. Dont put your religions in a fictional game. It makes the Emperor sad

      Well... you got me on that last point I didn't mean to say "Dark Angels are Protestants" but they are thematically, in my educated view, protestant knights.

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    • Then again they are imo the Knightly Order thing and a tad of a secret society, which brings me more to the conclusion of them being a mixture of Freemasons/Illuminati and the Knights Templar. Thus pointing moee towards the UK and France.

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    • Aldaron The Hunter 96 wrote:
      Europe&NearEast-Legions-1-

      Here is something I put together inspired by this conversation. We established that of course the legions drew from everywhere on Terra, but here is a legions by primary country and culture of foundation and recruitment in my perspective.

      1.Luna Wolves- Italy 2.Ultramarines- France 3.War Hounds- Hungary 4.Blood Angels- Switzerland 5.Emperors Children- Austria 6.Imperial Fists- Germany 7.Dusk Raiders- Albania 8.Night Lords- Romania 9.Raven Guard- Croatia 10.Imperial Heralds- Spain 11.Salamanders- Algeria 12.Iron Warriors- Russia 13.White Scars- Mongolian expanse 14.Alpha Legion- Ireland 15.Iron Hands- UK 16.Dark Angels- Denmark 17.Space Wolves- Sweden 18.Thousand Sons- Iran

      Thoughts?

      This is pretty great, but a lot of these seem rather puzzling to me.

      For one, I'd recommend matching the Legions to historical nations, not modern ones: yes, they are often very similar, but there are still differences.

      The first one that I think is completely surprising is the Ultramarines: what on earth have they got in common with France? To me they are quite obviously inspired by the ancient Roman Empire, but I'd be very curious to see on what you base this? If you're thinking of the Napoleonic Empire, I might be able to understand, but ultimately Napoleon picked up a lot of inspiration from the Roman Empire too.


      Now, in Legion order:

      I-Why would the Dark Angels be descended from Denmark? France and England are better known for their chivalric traditions then Denmark, and I'm not even certain that Denmark even had a monastic order of Chivalry? Chivalric Orders, especially Monastic ones, aren't particularly close to Protestantism in my books, so I'd welcome an explanation as to why you see them as protestants? (also, Denmark is far from being the only protestant country in Europe, so the protestantism argument isn't sufficient for Dark Angels coming from Denmark)

      III - I'm surprised to see Austria, though I'd never really had an idea of where they could come from so can't disagree. Could you expand on your reasons?

      IV - Instinctively, I'd have said that the Iron Warriors were german with some assyrian/babylonian aesthetics, but your assessment of their mentality as russians (perhaps more specifically the meat grinders of the Soviets) is convincing

      V - No argument

      VI - As others have said, limiting Space Wolves to just Sweden is a bit limiting, probably Scandinavia as a whole? I have to be honnest, never really grasped where the Celtic influence was said to come in, but I think GW themselves have officially spoken about supposedly celtic influences so I can't say (no sources on that)

      VII - Once again I'd probably extend fists to the whole Holy Roman Empire then just Germany, but otherwise no argument

      VIII - Transylvanian Vampires? Yes please :)

      IX - Why Switzerland? The Blood Angels don't seem to isolationnist to me, they've always been depicted as quite outgoing. They're also supposed to be great artists and thinkers, so instinctively I'd say Renaissance Italy, though I haven't really got any argument for it.

      X - Again I'd thought of some elements of the Persian Empire ("Immortals"), but Scots Highlanders seems more logical indeed.

      XII - Why Hungary? Instinctively I'd say Roman Gladiators but that's not very useful? I'd be interested in seeing your thought process?

      XIII - Already mentionned

      XIV - Seems okay to me, though some suggest Albia could be England rather then Albania.

      XV - I'd probably replace "Iran" with "Mesopotamia" (Babylonia specifically) and Ancient Egyptians: There are certain internal differences in the Thousand Sons (not exactly divisions) that fit better with the Ancient Egyptians, and Iran has more islamic influences then the Mesopotamian part of the Thousand Sons.

      XVI - Why? Romulus for the Wolf part? For me the Luna Wolves have quite a harsh side to their nature, rather then Italian flourishes.

      XVII - Hum, why not.

      XVIII - Huh? I'd actually think that Promethean "Holy Cities" were even closer to Mesopotamian great cities (Babylonia, Assyria, etc.) and the Promethean cult has some ressemblances to parts of Zoroastrian faith (I think, I'm not up-to-date on the Zoroastrian faith)

      XIX - Why especially Croatia? I'm not contradicting, I'm curious?

      XX - Huh?

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    • I don't think I'll be explaining all my reasoning here. It would take too long, but I know 40k pretty well, I know European history pretty well, this is the map. Besides why should I stop you from the fun of researching the history of the Huns for example to see why I gave them the War Hounds.

      NOTE: Thousand Sons, White Scars, Dusk Raiders, and Imperial Fists are not to be contested as there is concrete lore backing these selections up.

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    • Aah, I hadn't thought of it as the Magyars ^^ Ok, seems logical.

      Of course for the note I wasn't putting in doubt the White Scars or the Imperial Fists, I'm prepared to concede the point on the Thousand Sons. For the Dusk Raiders I know they come from Albia ("Ancient Albia" iirc), but we don't actually specifically know where Albia is: it could just as easily be Britain (as Albia is one of Britain's older and more poetic names)


      However I have never ever seen Ultramarines compared to the French, and I'd like to get your take on it :)

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    • Aldaron The Hunter 96 wrote:

      NOTE: Thousand Sons, White Scars, Dusk Raiders, and Imperial Fists are not to be contested as there is concrete lore backing these selections up.

      White Scars: Brotherhood of the storm states that they recruited from all over terra

      Lunar Wolves: Recruit from "Scandmark" as stated in "Scars" chapter 1.

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    • I think it is worth pointing out that the current thread lines thoughts are basing the recruitment locations on circa 2,000 AD years of history, specifically and almost soley European. 

      There has being a pretty massive amount of cultural/political etc changes in just that amount of time.

      The Emperor was conducting the unification wars/preparations forthe great crusade in circa 31,000 AD. Resultantly some 28-29,000 approximately years have gone by, worth of history. What is to say that a massive Greco-Roman style civilisation didn't flourish in present/real Norway and last longer than the actual Greek/Romans did, establishing an entirely displaced map. 

      Coupled with the legions not soley as a rule recruiting from one area (pre-primarch areas especially) then the legion recruits and thus adopted culture is not going to be set to one place fully or certainly not one place we would neccisarily know or understand now. 

      so i'd not worry too much or try to nail down mist too much.

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    • Warhounds as the huns (What the f*ck do you have aginst the huns)... Maybe I´m losing some important point, Aldaron The Hunter 96. But why???? There is no real reference od their traits before Angron and all the mayor characteristics they inherited from him are basicaly roman slaves + spartacus = Total chaos. They and the ultramarines have the most similar to "ancient romans".

      Share the complexity of your thoughts.

      Again Word Bearers as Spain doesnt make sense (to me) .The main irony is that in the context of the war religions in Erurope you can even say we were the loyalist, not the zealous rebels. The closest thing in the warhammer universe to your vision of us are the Black Templars.

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    • Funny thing... i just googled Colchis (Homeworld of the Word Bearers). It's an ancient country (literally a country... with a frontier in the river Corax XDD) that today is part of Georgia, Turkey, Russia. It was also the land where the mythological Prometheus was punished by being chained to a mountain while an eagle ate at his liver for revealing the secret of fire/knowledge of the gods.

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    • 86.169.171.43 wrote:
      I think it is worth pointing out that the current thread lines thoughts are basing the recruitment locations on circa 2,000 AD years of history, specifically and almost soley European. 

      There has being a pretty massive amount of cultural/political etc changes in just that amount of time.

      The Emperor was conducting the unification wars/preparations forthe great crusade in circa 31,000 AD. Resultantly some 28-29,000 approximately years have gone by, worth of history. What is to say that a massive Greco-Roman style civilisation didn't flourish in present/real Norway and last longer than the actual Greek/Romans did, establishing an entirely displaced map. 

      Coupled with the legions not soley as a rule recruiting from one area (pre-primarch areas especially) then the legion recruits and thus adopted culture is not going to be set to one place fully or certainly not one place we would neccisarily know or understand now. 

      so i'd not worry too much or try to nail down mist too much.

      I don't think this is an exercise in thinking too much of where the Legions came from, but more in terms of on what cultures the designers based the Legions on.

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    • 83.33.178.147 wrote:
      Funny thing... i just googled Colchis (Homeworld of the Word Bearers). It's an ancient country (literally a country... with a frontier in the river Corax XDD) that today is part of Georgia, Turkey, Russia. It was also the land where the mythological Prometheus was punished by being chained to a mountain while an eagle ate at his liver for revealing the secret of fire/knowledge of the gods.

      Yup, right at the base of Anatolia... Waaaiit, isn't that where the Emperor comes from ? :P

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    • The lore is there to give contemporary readers frameworks for their streotypes, nothing more, nothing less..

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    • Lord Thørn wrote:
      83.33.178.147 wrote:
      Funny thing... i just googled Colchis (Homeworld of the Word Bearers). It's an ancient country (literally a country... with a frontier in the river Corax XDD) that today is part of Georgia, Turkey, Russia. It was also the land where the mythological Prometheus was punished by being chained to a mountain while an eagle ate at his liver for revealing the secret of fire/knowledge of the gods.
      Yup, right at the base of Anatolia... Waaaiit, isn't that where the Emperor comes from ? :P

      Yeh about there

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    • Potentially that didn't come through well in my point but that was what I was aiming to put across. That sheer Geography is not a good attachement to culture as A) people are saying things like 'germany is really good at tech' (simplification) based of a snap shot of circa 2000 years of European history. Given that the Emperor would be sampling his culture from 30000 years of history, then it is clear that alot could have changed in the other 28000 years. Poland could have became ninja at tech and Germany fell into nothing in the other years. Thus now, in this culture, we think "good with tech", we think Germany as they are synonyms with it. But to a person of the year 30000, Poland has a much better run at tech development, efficency and general abilty to be productive. 

      A little hyperbole but the Empire was actually based off the Muffmo nation, based in present day Malta who came to power in 12000 and had a powerful empire for nearly the next 20000 years. They took examples of practice from the Greeks, Romans and the Liverpool gangs of the 1950's. 

      So no, it wasn't based on the Romans fully as they were relatively flash in the pan compared to the Muffmo's who had a much impact on Pre-Imperium culture than the Romans. 

      Lol so yeah, i'd not argue too much as they'll take a little from a lot of sources.

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