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  • To be honest, I'm just asking this because I am curious... everything in 40k is blown out of proportion than anything I have seen.

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    • I honestly don't think so.. Like w40k is beyond insane I think it's one of the best

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    • Thinking about the Imperium forces just before the HH, i think that all the others combined will still have a hard time winning...

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    • Alpharious Omegron wrote:
      I honestly don't think so.. Like w40k is beyond insane I think it's one of the best


      I heard Dust could do it but I don't know jack about the universe. Supposedly its where even the most simple of soldiers can time travel? Probably the Precursors from Halo too...

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    • I think Star Wars could give it a run for it's money but its really hard to say if you go strickly by the cannon, i. e. the movies, because they don't show a whole lot in terms of martial prowess. Going by the expanded universive it looks as if Star Wars is very similar in terms of scale and resource. But Star Wars also doesn't have anyone as strong as the Space Marines or as useful as the psykers. So while I think they would give them a good fight, 40k wouldstill come out on top. 

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    • The problem here is always going to be comparing two universes onm a number of variables and making them match up between settings, bearing in mind completely incompatible fictional sciences. Also, what do we mean by universe? Would including star trek necessarily mean the federation or would species 8472 count? Would the Chaos Gods be participants? 

      It would make sense slightly more if we narrowed the discussion down to individual factions but even then its very difficult to establish how they would match up. In the above example the IoM easily overmatches the federation in scale, manpower and military resources. However, their FTL is horribly unreliable, making deployments chaotic and unpredictable, whereas the federation can put exactly the forces they want, where they want, when they want. The IoM builds much larger, more militarised ships, but their tech (and specifically ability to advance) is stagnant and pretty basic by scifi standards, whereas you can guarantee within a few days of encountering void shields the federation would be actively looking for ways to bypass them. Based on what we see in their canon, they'd likely succeed. The IoM would absolutely dominate in land engagements, whereas the federation would fight primarily in space, with (believe it or not) their own form of exterminatus available if need be (general order 24). In a war of attrition the IoM wins hands down, but purely because they are larger and frankly geared up for total war, not necessarily due to actual tactical or technical superiority. They would grind the federation down, but they would spend several years being danced around and taking horrendous losses doing so. Although yeah, Space Wolves v starfleet redshirts would be funny.

      This of course assumes that you are simply lining them up to face each other in a vacuum. In setting the IoM is protrayed as being stretched pretty thin, constantly having to face multiple attacks from existing factions all of which are consistently hostile, whereas the federation has more diplomatic relations with their neighbours (who often even serve as allies) and would be in a more flexible position to deploy a large fraction of their forces, as during the dominion war when most estimates have them fielding 30,000 combat ships on a fairly narrow front.

      In another scenario, on the other hand, we are literally teaming everything present in one universe up against everything from another, then you have to question exactly what in the 40k universe could feasibly threaten the borg, 8472, V'ger, the whale probe, the organians, the prophets and the biggest of them all, the Q. Even the Blackstone Fortresses are portrayed as being at least potentially vulnerable to sufficient firepower, whereas several of the above have at this time shown no vulnerabilities.

      Even the Chaos Gods are not portrayed as omnipotent, far from it fact, nor is the Emp, both relying very heavily on mortal followers to increase their capabilities, whereas the Q are rarely if ever noted to have any limitations whatsoever. On screen they have claimed to have them, but only appear to visibly display them when taken totally by surprise (walking into an unexpected forcefield - which he then walked straight through, being punched in the face by Sisko, etc). When prepared they are seemingly capable of doing absolutely anything they want,literally to the point of using the galaxy as a plaything with no effort at all, and they number in the very least the hundreds. In other words trek has a whole race of beings who individually out match the Emperor by at least an order of magnitude.

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    • However if you take out the fact of mortal worshippers nurgle gains his powers through plagues. When millions or billions are dying of his plagues he becomes stronger than all the chaos gods including khorne. The mortal followers are part of it but not the 90% khorne would become empowered by the blood shed and carnage and slanesshh would gain strength by the pleasure of victory from the GM and Khorne and the other factions participating in the war. Nurgle would gain the power from the death and his followers would spread plague across the planets and the plagues nurgle concots are beyond imaginable I mean seriously an entire space marine legion and primarch become corrupted because there skin is slotting off there bones and they join nurgle as salvation dieses that run rife through ships and corrupt the ship the terminal est is an example, tzeentch.. Well he's the strange one but he will gain power through advancement and ambition . Malice would gain power as all of the gods gain power. The tyranids would run rampant around the galaxy growing stronger as they learn of their prey and their weaknesses. I honestly think anyway you look at it it will be close

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    • The eldar and there diverse tech to the tau and there advancing tech. I mean the tau are more advance the ig but yet the ig can stand there ground. Either way you look at it close

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    • I'm not sure I could speak for space combat.

      In terms of ground combat, the Warhammer 30k-40k universe would probably come out ahead in most areas. It employs the widest variety of combined arms, compared to most any other universe I know.

      - Star Trek uses fairly advanced energy weapons, but little more than as light infantry or strike teams.

      - Star Wars does attempt to use combined arms tactics and equipment similar to the Imperium's Imperial Guard. But the sheer scale is dwarfed by WH40k. Any battle may simply come down to quality of command and troops.

      - Even the Dune universe by Frank and Brian Herbert is heavily reliant on base infantry, but limited it terms air support (weaker than 40k), and ground vehicles. Only fighting on a world like Arrakis/Dune might favor the Dune Universe.

      ofc, someone would just say "Exterminatus". Keep in mind - Star Wars universe loved its own super weapons - Dune universe can make use of atomic weapons, it's just generally avoided

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    • Got you on nurgle, but even in that case he is only being measured relative to his peers, my point was not that the Q are powerful as a matter of degree, but that they are seemingly truly omnipotent.

      Of course such a position would pretty much invalidate the discussion so they are possibly best disregarded, but that still leaves a multitude of uber beings and tech which easily trump anything in the 40k setting.

      Take the organians, they ended a war between the federation and Klingons by disarming both sides, everywhere. Even further we have the douwd, one of whom wiped out an entire space faring species in a fit of pique. None of the chaos gods could even come close to that, regardless of their current strength level.

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    • Then you have Q, a being who talks casually about altering the gravitational constant and completely f*cks with the entire universe for his own amusement.  But there's a saying in sci-fi debating circles (e.g. Star Destroyer.net) that if you have to invoke gods (or godlike aliens) to win, you're tacitly admitting that your chosen side can't win without a deus ex machina.

      I once got into an interesting discussion of how the Imperium would stack up against the Yuuzhan Vong if you swapped them in for the tyranids.  We concluded the Imperium would actually do pretty well:  the Inquisition is there to counter Vong spies and saboteurs, and while they do use combined arms to a degree (complete with organic analogues to AT-ATs), they have a tendency towards human(oid) wave tactics and have little in the way of man-portable ranged weaponry (limited mainly to thud bugs, which act like hand grenades).

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    • Starsword, granted, hence my observation that they should be discounted. Nor are starlet my chosen side, I'm simply making an observation that they excel in areas that the IoM would struggle and vica versa.

      I'll be honest here, other than the broad outlines I'm not well versed on the yuuzhan vong (even had to check your post for the spelling). Would I be right in saying they were in some manner force resistant, which in SW would be a pretty major force multiplier

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    • Starlet? Star fleet? Same thing...

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    • Fine disregarding the gods and the emps. You still have the Nids that will swarm over the federation with the necrons that have tactical acumumen beyond imagining combined with technological advancement. The space marines can hold their own in a fight. Then you have the orcs and their wargghs. Like there was an Orc that would have strangled the emperor him self self with his bare hands and they can make weapons and vehicles simply with the thought of it will work. Like an example is the orcs believe that painting a yellow strip on a missle makes the missle have a bigger explosion. We know that's not true however the orcs think it is true so in turn the missle has a bigger explosion. Another example is Orc weapons are only used by orcs because the orcs believe it will work so it will work for them and not for anyone else. Taking out the "Gods" an Orc wargghs will probably overwhelm the federation. I mean a species that reproduces through spores is hard to extermiate. Let's say the orcs invade a planet and get defeated on death spores are released and more are birthed as feral orcs so that problem will persist indefinitely, and if another Orc Waarrgghh comes through then the feral orcs will join the other orcs and the process repeats. The. You have the Nids who are going to adapt to the circumstances. The are reports of the Tyranids gaining immunity to the taus weapons and also reports of the Tyranids getting bigger and harder to kill from the Octavian system. So you have to worry about these guys harvesting planets. Maybe if the federation gets an advantage and hits a Hive fleet before it gets to a planet but if they aren't careful a decimated hive fleet can easily dwarf the original in splinter fleets.

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    • This argument also applies to Star Wars too :)

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    • The above of course lines up multiple 40k factions against the feds acting alone. If we are including multiple (read:all) factions from both settings there are so many unknowns it becomes largely a matter of interpreting the repsective canons as you see fit. 

      We know the IoM and federation pretty well in broad strokes and some detail. For instance we may not know exactly how many IG regiments there are at a given point, but we have a good feel for the scale of their recruitment pool, methods, structure and technical capabilities. Likewise with starfleet we are familiar enough with their operating procedures, tech and scale that we can make pretty reasonable assessments of their capabilities in wartime (ie not during their more peaceful operations we tend to see on a weekly basis). 

      On the other hand we do not have as clear an idea of the number of necron worlds, the number of borg cubes, the true relationship between the various hive fleets and the scale of the gestalt they represent, the vulnerabilities of 8472, etc

      Nor do we have evidence about the interactions of these various (often pseudoscientific) unknowns,eg;  Could the borg assimilate tyranids? Could nano probes be adapted to deal with orc spores (as we have seen them adapted to eliminate/assimilate icro organisms en masse before)? How would the various telepathic/telekinetic races match up against psykers and would they also attract daemonic attention in this scenario? Would 8472 simply resort to routinely destroying planets (as they did with great ease during their conflict with the borg)? How would the webway and transwarp condiuts compare in terms of mass troop movements? How would void shields cope against polaron beam weapons which bypass most trek energy based shielding? You could go on all day.

      To simplify it the real question would be how would our protagonist factions deal with each other. 

      If I had to put my money on it the crucial factor would be one of setting. In a straight up fight, out of context with no other factions involved in any form it's pretty much a given that the scale of the IoM would be the deciding factor. That along with their general willingness to throw human lives away en masse would be too much for the federation who would simply be overwhelmed by numbers. The losses would be horrific but the outcome certain. 

      If, however, they were to face each other with all of their usual contextual restraints in place then it becomes less clear cut. The IoM is already in a position of fighting a constant existential war with no obvious hope of relieving the pressure any time soon. Their numbers are vast but stretched thin against multiple threats. The federation on the other had has in the default state a pretty diplomatic set of relations with it's immediate neighbours (read Romulans, Klingons, etc) and can often in fact call on their assistance. Also, they have a pretty frequent habit of persuading contacted planets to alter their allegiances and join up voluntarily. In this case I suspect the IoM would struggle to stretch their already overloaded resources sufficiently to easily dispel a determined foe with starfleets capabilities. In doing so they would inevitably have to weaken their forces on another front.

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    • It was also a comparison with Star Wars too lol not just star treck but in all reality this would be pretty cool to see go down

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    • Shockingly the above wall of text was a re type, you have no idea of my pain when I lost the original attempt...

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    • Thought in that case, would Jedi attract demonic attention?

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    • Star Trek universe has the advantage that they can heavily control where they go with their Warp Drives and Transwarp capability (if you get into the Borg). The only downside of the tech is the amount of time that passes between Point A and Point B. They tend to indicate it would take a year to cover 1000 or so lightyears, yet we see starships going even further with less of a timeskip.

      Star Wars can between 2 points, but they have limitations between Hyperspace routes/lanes. Whether it is faster or slower than the Trek universe, I don't know.

      Battlestar Galactica, you could jump a long distance, but we have no knowledge of time that passes or how far each jump goes.

      Warhammer universe, time and distance are fluid. Sometimes going from Point A to Point B can take a long time, yet go faster if You Go Point A to C to D to F to B. Ofc, who is to say if end up ahead of schedule or months or years after you planned to. For all you know, you leave today, and arrive at Point B 2 months in the past, but head for Point C and it takes you a month from your perspective but 10 years in real space.

      On top of that, while Warhammer universe has many of the largest known ships and maybe some of the more powerful weapons, I'd contest the reliability of that tech. (Though Star Trek universe is well known for work stations exploding at the drop of a hat)

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    • With so many diffrent science fiction factions it would be very difficult to discuss pros and cons of all factions..

      Every faction has their own pros and cons..also the lack of comparison inbetween weapons armor...ect..makes a comparasion difficult,  for example how would Space Marine  (SM) power armor do against plasma weaponry from the Covenant elites? and one vs one who is a stronger warrior? A tau plasma rifle can kill a SM so can a elite plasma rifle do the same? and can a Tau rifle kill an elite? or can a lasgun do the same?  what about the Jem hadar vs Sardaukar vs a Halo Spartan vs a Starship trooper vs the Peacekeepers?   to many variables all are the best of the best in their respected universes.

      That said in a ground engagement or boarding action the SM  would be very formidable,  but how would a army of Halo Spartans fare against chapter of SM? would a IG regiment win against a Klingon equlivant?  Necrons vs Terminators? (movie)

      The Flood vs Tyranids? that would be an epic fight...but I pose may questions and have no true victor The Reapers from Mass effect would be a worthy adversary along with the Empire at its zenith and the Covenant.  also the Flood bear an honorable mention. every faction has pros and cons...For our beloved Imperium

      Pros the IOM Sheer numbers with the IG and a vast  powerful navy along with the SM and a battle hardened expirence and war footing that is nearly unatched.

      Cons technology levels are stagnant and will most likely never advance even if they are loosing and unreliable transportation,  other 40k factions  the Orks would love to jump in any fight anybody along with chaos..Nids ect...

      Every other faction? I would be here for days and still not hit all of them but Dam its fun just thinking bout who vs who and whos better?  

      sorry folks I had ALOT of sugar today......

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    • I think you're all forgetting one important factor here: what interpretation of 40K are we using? It's incredibly inconsistent with regard to the technical stuff which is relevant to these sorts of debates. Depending on what source you use for the firepower of Imperial starships for example, it can range from "lance batteries can't kill ordinary humans" at the low end up to "lol single broadsides output more energy than supernovas" at the high end (though those are the extreme low and extreme high ends respectively, and both show up so infrequently that in 99% of cases they should be ignored). And pretty much everything else in the setting has just as wide a spread.

      The same is equally true of almost all other fiction (though with the exception of Halo and the Star Wars Expanded Universe very few things have the same degree of inconsistency as 40K). For example, if one were to place the TechnoCore from the Hyperion Cantos into 40K, would it be using the "single-digit salvoes of missiles not much better than real-world nukes" showings from the second book or the "Destroyed an entire Dyson Sphere in minutes" showings from the fourth?

      Though regardless of what numbers you go for, the Culture (from the sci-fi novels of the same name) would roflstomp the entire 40K galaxy unless you use the most ludicrous interpretations of what high-tier Warp entities are capable of. And they're not even the weakest group that could win.

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    • To be honest I hadn't even considered the Culture who AFAIK represent the single most powerful protagonist faction in sci fi. They have individual ships that could take on the IoM (30 or 40k) with impunity, and those ships number in the thousands.

      On another note, however, ive been giving this a little thought and realised that the IoM posess quite a few key weaknesses in space combat that would severely hinder them against many sci fi factions. Hinder to the point of cripple potentially.

      Specifically they posess neither FTL weapons or combat capability, nor can they move safely in system at anything but a very low fraction of the speed of light. Their sensors appear limited and their FTL itself so cumbersome and unpredictable that they couldnt react to pinpoint strikes except to assess the damage after the fact (which we often see in the 40k fluff anyway)

      Any FTL combatant could easily (as in very easily) outmaneouvre their ships and weapons (bearing in mind even lasers are light speed only), picking them off with FTL weapons. This would render even planetary assaults virtually impossible given the time frames between translating from the warp and moving into a planetary system (at the given max safe speed of 1%c this would take weeks and even that is generous given they would be decelerating steadily).

      On that basis I'd go with the Culture winning hands down, the Federation on a war setting being able to hold out indefinitely but not having the resources to go on the offensive, Dune not really making a dent, SW going toe to toe in prolonged ship to ship battles with the outcome depending in part on which faction we see.

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    • Geoffreycoconut wrote:
      To be honest I hadn't even considered the Culture who AFAIK represent the single most powerful protagonist faction in sci fi.

      There's a few that that outclass them but that's usually due to time travel, reality warping and/or sheer scale rather than actual parity in mundane factors like firepower or speed.

      nor can they move safely in system at anything but a very low fraction of the speed of light.

      Again, there's a great degree of inconsistency here. We have sources suggesting insanely high accelerations and high-relativistic combat speeds.

      SW going toe to toe in prolonged ship to ship battles with the outcome depending in part on which faction we see.

      Again, it depends what numbers you use for each side; Star Wars is just as inconsistent with speed, firepower and engagement ranges as 40K.

      And it depends on the scenario given as well. Is it a matter of ground combat with fixed force from setting A versus fixed force from setting B, space combat with fixed force from setting A versus fixed force from setting B, entire single faction from setting A versus entire single faction from setting B, or all factions from setting A versus all factions from setting B? Context is key. For example, Boloverse ground forces would murder 40K's with impunity but their space assets aren't really competitive except with the lower-end interpretations of 40K warships.

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    • hmm, later last night (whence away from internet access) the time lords/gallifreyens occured as a possible Culture trumping option, not to mention an easy IoM beater, but I'm struggling for anything else, at least with the protagonist proviso, would be good to hear what else you've got.

      As for context, I think we seem pretty settled on an overall strategic (read as total) war rather than specific encounter, so the terms of engagement would be fluid over many fronts. In that case the upper hand would be most likely with the faction with best control of the space lanes, thus the greatest capacity to move forces safely and employ exterminatus/blitzkreig tactics from orbit where conditions were unfavourable for ground combat.

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    • Geoffreycoconut wrote:
      hmm, later last night (whence away from internet access) the time lords/gallifreyens occured as a possible Culture trumping option, not to mention an easy IoM beater, but I'm struggling for anything else, at least with the protagonist proviso, would be good to hear what else you've got.

      Oh, the Time Lords could most definitely do it. I'd bet on the Xeelee as well, they're only slightly below the Time Lords/Time war Daleks, but they're not really protagonists as such.

      From what little I know of the Tenchi franchise the Jurai empire could take down most if not all of 40K with only slightly more effort than the Culture (they're actually more powerful in brute force terms, but seem to be slower).

      If we're looking for factions below Culture level than Greg Bear's interpretation of the Forerunners and Precursors from Halo could take on anyone in the current 40K galaxy but would probably be outmatched during the War in Heaven.

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    • Googled Xeelee, going to add Stephen Baxter to my upcoming reading list, thanks!

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    • Geoffreycoconut wrote:
      Googled Xeelee, going to add Stephen Baxter to my upcoming reading list, thanks!

      Just a heads up: if you're reading the Xeelee Sequence it's a good idea to start with Vacuum Diagrams to get a grasp on the overarching plot of the series. After that, IMHO it's best to move onto the first four novels in publication order (Raft, Timelike Infinity, Flux and Ring); leave it at that if you're satisfied or move onto the Destiny's Children series and the other short story compilations if you want more

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    • Cool, re reading the Death's Gate cycle for nostalgia's sake atm then that should pan out nicely for pay day :)

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    • Geoffreycoconut wrote:
      Starsword, granted, hence my observation that they should be discounted. Nor are starlet my chosen side, I'm simply making an observation that they excel in areas that the IoM would struggle and vica versa.

      I'll be honest here, other than the broad outlines I'm not well versed on the yuuzhan vong (even had to check your post for the spelling). Would I be right in saying they were in some manner force resistant, which in SW would be a pretty major force multiplier

      Yeah, essentially you're right.  The way it worked out in the end was, they had been stripped of the Force by a remnant of their (sentient) homeworld as punishment for destroying it in their internal wars (rather like the Jedi Exile in Knights of the Old Republic II had the Force itself reject her). As a result, they could neither feel nor be felt by the Force, or affected directly by Force powers (though apparently Force Lightning still works fine on them, as discovered by a couple Dark Jedi in Star By Star). During the SDN discussion we agreed to fudge this and say that this would make them highly resistant-to-immune to most Warp sorcery.

      As for other possibilities raised:  I doubt the SPARTANs themselves would be able to defeat an actual Space Marine army, just because of numbers.  While there's a lot of similarities in training, bio-augmentation, and equippage, the SPARTANs were never intended as anything other than special operations forces: the entire graduating class of SPARTAN-IIs that John-117 was a part of wasn't even equivalent to a single Space Marine company, only about fifty candidates, around a dozen of whom died or were permanently disabled in training. Even the cheaper and comparatively weaker SPARTAN-IIIs (Noble Team) and -IVs (Sarah Palmer and Jameson Locke's squad from the new trilogy) still aren't produced in very large numbers.

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    • Guys, it's probably best to leave the Spartan versus Space Marine thing alone. That will only cause fanboys to catch the scent of the thread, and then any hope of productive discussion will be buried under insults and masturbatory hyperbole. Just leave it at "depends on what interpretation of both sides you're using" (which it does, both Space Marines and Spartans are hilariously inconsistent in their showings.)

      StarSword wrote:
      Even the cheaper and comparatively weaker SPARTAN-IIIs (Noble Team) and -IVs (Sarah Palmer and Jameson Locke's squad from the new trilogy) still aren't produced in very large numbers.

      IIRC didn't they actually make quite a few S-IIIs, but then threw most of them away on suicide missions leaving only a handful by the time the Spartan program switched to S-IV production?

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    • Slug gunner fan wrote:
      IIRC didn't they actually make quite a few S-IIIs, but then threw most of them away on suicide missions leaving only a handful by the time the Spartan program switched to S-IV production?

      Hell, I dunno.  I've got all the games but I've only read the novels set during and before the first trilogy; apart from that the only EU bits I'm familiar with are the live-action miniseries and Legends.

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    • StarSword wrote:
      Hell, I dunno.  I've got all the games but I've only read the novels set during and before the first trilogy; apart from that the only EU bits I'm familiar with are the live-action miniseries and Legends.

      Ah, so you haven't read the Forerunner saga? I would recommend it, paints a much better picture of the Forerunner civilization and the war against the Flood than the games.

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    • How about the flood vs the tyranids... And let's throw the Xenomorphs in for good measure.. And the aliens from the aliens saga all in one massive battle

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    • Alpharious Omegron wrote:
      How about the flood vs the tyranids... And let's throw the Xenomorphs in for good measure.. And the aliens from the aliens saga all in one massive battle

      That's a terrible scenario. Assuming this is games-only Flood then they're just charging space zombies who would pose no threat to the Tyranids whatsoever; assuming it's Forerunner saga Flood then the situation is totally reversed. And the Xenomorphs add nothing.

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    • The Xenomorphs would be adding until they got assimilated by the Nids. But I meant the creatures from dead space.. That would be fucking epic lol but the flood not in game flood cause they are weak but over all the lore of the flood in history not just in game. And the necromorphs is what I meant. Just one big massive battle the flood own one section of a planet the Nids another necromorphs and Xenomorphs etc... Equal footing for all no advantages how would the battle swing ??

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    • Oh they all have a single faction leader.. The flood a gravemind Xenomorphs a queen Nids a norn queen and necromorphs a brethren moon.

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    • Alpharious Omegron wrote:
      Equal footing for all no advantages

      That totally defeats the point of any kind of debate.

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    • No it doesn't because they still have all the factors that make them who they are. Like why give the flood a bigger base and Nids less power base. Like that's what I'm referring too

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    • Alpharious Omegron wrote:
      No it doesn't because they still have all the factors that make them who they are. Like why give the flood a bigger base and Nids less power base. Like that's what I'm referring too

      Well in that case you're giving the Flood equivalent numbers to the Hive Fleets, at which point they're orders of magnitude past the criticals mass required for Keyminds to form. So they just send a few million Star Roads in the general direction of the Tyranids and be done with it.

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    • No like equivalent numbers. So that way they can battle it out where one doesn't have superior numbers or superior mass or troops. That is the best way to decide who would win

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    • Wow. I think I left this post about two months this ago and it exploded. I think maybe EU Star Wars or the Ancient Races of Halo can take a whip outta 40k. Of course, I mean each faction at its peak, so the results will never be certain. Not unless someone builds some portal into each universe and watch them fight it off here on earth... I just got an idea for another debate :D

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    • Kriegsman wrote:
      I think maybe the Ancient Races of Halo can take a whip outta 40k.

      Oh, most certainly. The Necrons are the only faction who could put up a reliable fight without plot armour or overwhelming numerical advantage. you need the C'Tan or the absolute silliest interpretations of Chaos in play for 40K to actually eke out a win.

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    • Kriegsman wrote: Wow. I think I left this post about two months this ago and it exploded. I think maybe EU Star Wars or the Ancient Races of Halo can take a whip outta 40k. Of course, I mean each faction at its peak, so the results will never be certain. Not unless someone builds some portal into each universe and watch them fight it off here on earth... I just got an idea for another debate :D

      Arguing about whose franchise would kick other franchise's ass = classic geek pastime. :)

      The Galactic Empire at its peak would probably overmatch the Imperium at its peak in space just because of the strategic implications of hyperdrive. Travel by Warp is slow, unreliable, and incredibly dangerous (yes, I know we have Han's speech to Luke in A New Hope, but come on, it's space: orbits are mathematically predictable and space is 99.9-repeating% empty), whereas Star Wars is a setting where people casually talk about traveling to the other side of the galaxy like they were jogging down to the corner store. Add in the logistical and manufacturing capability that must exist to build 2/3 of Death Star II in a few months, plus the fact that, like the Tau, the Empire actually properly understands its technology. And though I'm inclined to give ground battles to the Imperium due to proper combined arms and godawful-huge blind spots on Galactic Imperial armored vehicles, it would probably work out a lot like the Covenant-Earth War in Halo: every minor victory for the Imperium on the ground turns into a major defeat in space.

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    • StarSword wrote:
      The Galactic Empire at its peak would probably overmatch the Imperium at its peak in space just because of the strategic implications of hyperdrive. Travel by Warp is slow, unreliable, and incredibly dangerous (yes, I know we have Han's speech to Luke in A New Hope, but come on, it's space: orbits are mathematically predictable and space is 99.9-repeating% empty), whereas Star Wars is a setting where people casually talk about traveling to the other side of the galaxy like they were jogging down to the corner store.

      The main trouble is that safe Hyperspace travel requires having hyperlanes mapped out; in the SW galaxy this isn't an issue because this was done thousands of years ago and hyperlanes don't shift around too much, but if anyone in SW were to go on the offensive into the 40K galaxy they'd need to travel cautiously and map it out as they go along.

      That and there's Daemon attacks to consider. This tidbit from the 5th Ed Necron Codex

      "Necrons were ever masters of transcendant physics, pocket dimensions and hyper-geometry, and these sciences are put to full effect wherever they can serve useful function. Many Tomb Worlds and strongholds are far more vast within than they might appear from the outside, or are protected by energy labyrinths of impossible size. Some specialized troops, notably Deathmarks, regularly employ pocket dimensions as vantage points from which to hunt their foes, and the more accomplished nemesors can conceal entire armies and fleets in slivers of out-of-phase reality. Yet as confounding as these technologies might be to the other races of the galaxy, there is one enemy whom they are no defense. To the Daemons of the Warp, such technological conjurings are merely another flavour of existence to be corrupted and devoured."

      tells us that Warp entities can in fact target other planes of reality beside realspace since Daemons can apparently break into Necron pocket dimensions. Hyperspace still ought to be safer than traversing the Warp but the risk is there. (Though admittedly that depends on malevolent Warp entities actually being aware of SW Hyperspace which they may not be.)

      Add in the logistical and manufacturing capability that must exist to build 2/3 of Death Star II in a few months

      Don't take that by the letter though, building one big station is not the same as building many small warships. (If you assume it is the same, and thus scale linearly by mass, you get that ridiculous calculation where the a Star Destroyer is completed every 2-4 seconds or something, which doesn't at all match up with the ship numbers we actually see in any source that doesn't involve the Star Forge.)

      plus the fact that, like the Tau, the Empire actually properly understands its technology.

      They seem to insist on not using that tech to its full potential though. Where are the droid brain-controlled targeting systems for heavy gun turrets? Where are the anti-fighter PD guns on any ship that isn't the Millenium Falcon? And so on and so forth.

      Argh, space opera tropes frustrate me so much. (Then again 40K, especially in older fluff, is equally guilty of the same things for the arguably worse reason of meeting the grimdark quota.)

      And though I'm inclined to give ground battles to the Imperium due to proper combined arms and godawful-huge blind spots on Galactic Imperial armored vehicles

      Not to mention the most important and relevant factor, that being that 40K vehicles generally display superior performance as weapons of war in their source material compared to their SW counterparts. (Though like everything in 40K it's inconsistent as heck, for example using DoW visuals they're around the same level, the superior performance on the 40K side comes from certain showings in the novels.)

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    • Goku would kill them all :P

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    • If we go back to the golden age of humanity (The Age of Technology) then i think the 40k universe would defeat any sci-fi universe easily. Because back then Humanity was so advanced, much much much more advanced than the imperium at it's current state. There was actually a mention of a black hole staff (in a novel) that literally shoots miniature black holes and how they managed to not let the black hole swallow up the whole planet just shows how greatly humanity understood their own technology at that time. 

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    • 195.204.237.81 wrote:
      If we go back to the golden age of humanity (The Age of Technology) then i think the 40k universe would defeat any sci-fi universe easily. Because back then Humanity was so advanced, much much much more advanced than the imperium at it's current state. There was actually a mention of a black hole staff (in a novel) that literally shoots miniature black holes and how they managed to not let the black hole swallow up the whole planet just shows how greatly humanity understood their own technology at that time. 

      We know barely anything about the DAOT to the point where we can't actually discuss it at all in this context. All we see are a few examples of their technology (a couple of starships and that one super defence laser immediately come to mind) about which we have no idea how common they were, nor whether they were representative of an upper limit or not. We have no information on army or fleet sizes, territory, industrial capacity, level of militarisation in their society or anything we need to know to actually draw a conclusion.

      And even if we assume that every ship was on the level of the two we've actually seen, that every world had a full grid of super defence lasers and that every citizen could acquire a black hole staff as a common commodity, and that their industry, territory and military might were at the very least comparable to the current IOM, I'm still not seeing them being comparable to the Culture at all.

      Allow me to demonstrate:

      "What’s happening, Veppers, is that a f***ing Culture hyper-ship that can split up to become a fleet of ships is laying waste to our f***ing war fleet of ships even as we speak and even as you, unbelievably, continue to waste time. It’s destroying thousands of them each minute!"
      -Surface Detail
      It sensed the oncoming fleet ahead, like a pattern of brightly rushing comets in that envisaged space, Ninety-six ships arranged in a rough circle spread across a front thirty light years of 3-D space across, half above, half below the skein. Behind them lay the traces of another wave, numerically the same size as the first but taking up twice the volume.

      ...

      The Killing Time plunged intact through the third wave of ancient Culture ships; they rushed on, towards the Excession. It fended off a few more of the warheads and missiles which had been directed at it, turning a couple of the latter back upon their own ships for a few moments before they were detected and destructed. The hulk of the Attitude Adjuster fell astern behind the departing fleet, coasting and twisting and tumbling in hyperspace, still heading away from and outstripping the Killing Time as it braked and started to turn.

      There was only a vestigial fourth wave; fourteen ships (they were targeting it now). Had it known there were so few in the final echelon, the Killing Time would have attacked the second wave of ships. Oh well; luck counted too. It watched the Attitude Adjuster a moment longer to ensure it really was tearing itself apart. It was.

      It turned its attention to the remaining fourteen craft. On its suicide trajectory it could take them all on and stand a decent chance of destroying perhaps four of them before its luck ran out; maybe a half-dozen if it was really lucky. Or it could push away and complete its brake-turn-accelerate manoeuvre to make a second pass at the main fleet. Even if they'd be waiting for it this time, it could reckon on accounting for a good few of them. Again, in the four-to-eight range.

      Or it could do this.

      It pulled itself round the edge of the fourteen ships in the rump of the fleet as they reconfigured their formation to meet it. Bringing up the rear they had had more warning of its attack and so had had time to adopt a suitable pattern. The Killing Time ignored the obvious challenge and temptation of flying straight into their midst and flew past and round, targeting only the outer five craft nearest it.

      They gave a decent account of themselves but it prevailed, dispatching two of them with engine field implosures. This was, it had always thought, a clean, decent and honourable way to die. The pair of wreckage-shells coasted onwards; the rest of the ships sped on unharmed, chasing the main fleet. Not one of the ships turned back to take it on.

      The Killing Time continued to brake, oriented towards the fast vanishing war fleet and the region of the Excession. Its engine fields were gouging great livid tracks in the energy grid as it back-pedalled furiously.

      It encountered the ROU which had dropped aft with engine damage, falling back towards it as the Killing Time slowed and the other craft coasted onward and struggled to repair its motive power units. The Killing Time attempted to communicate with the ROU, was fired upon, and tried to take the craft over with its effector. The ROU's own independent automatics detected the ship's Mind starting to give in. They tripped a destruct sequence and another hypersphere of radiation blossomed beneath the skein.

      S***, thought the Killing Time. It scanned the hyper volumes around itself. Nothing threatening.

      Well, damn me, it thought, as it slowed. I'm still alive.

      This was the one outcome it hadn't anticipated.

      It ran a systems check. Totally unharmed, apart from the self-inflicted degradation to its engines. It slackened off the power, dropping back to normal maxima and watching the readouts; significant degradation from here in about a hundred hours. Not too bad. Self-repairing would take days at all-engines-stop. Warhead stocks down to forty per cent; remanufacturing from first principles would take four to seven hours, depending on the exact mix it chose. Plasma chambers at ninety-six per cent efficiency; about right for the engagement system-use profile according to the relevant charts and graphs. Self-repair mechanisms champing the bit. It looked around, concentrating on the view astern. No obvious threats; it let the self-repairers make a start on two of the four chambers. Full reconstruction time, two hundred and four seconds.

      Entire engagement duration; eleven microseconds. Hmm; it had felt longer. But then that was only natural.

      -Excession
      He looked for the Culture ship, then told himself to not to be stupid; it was probably still several trillion kilometres away. That was how divorced from the human scale modern warfare had become. You could smash and destroy from unthinkable distances, obliterate planets from beyond their own system and provoke stars into novae from light-years off... and still have no good idea why you were fighting.
      -Consider Phlebas
      "All we do is drop a micro black hole into the centre of the planet. Simple as that; no untidy debris left floating about, no big, vulgar flash, and, if we do it right, no upsetting the rest of the solar system. It takes longer than displacing a few tonnes of CAM into the core, but even that has the advantage of giving the humans time to reflect on their past follies, as their world is eaten away beneath them. In the end, all you'd have left is something about the size of a large pea in the same orbit as the Earth, and a minor amount of X-ray pollution from meteoric material."
      –The State of the Art
      The Grey Area was Fascinated and Appalled. It had never thought to experience anything like this. It had grown up in a universe almost totally free from threat; providing you didn’t try to do anything utterly stupid like plunge into a black or a white hole, there was simply no natural force that could threaten a ship of its power and sophistication; even a supernova held little threat, handled properly.
      -Excession
      Gridfire struck the Orbital. Horza paused and watched the screen as it lit up suddenly, flashing once over its whole surface until the sensors coped with the sudden increase in brilliance and compensated. For some reason Horza had thought the Culture would just splash the gridfire all over the massive Orbital and then spatter the remains with CAM, but they didn't do that; instead a single narrow line of blinding white light appeared right across the breadth of the day side of the Orbital, a thin fiery blade of silent destruction which was instantly surrounded by the duller but still perfectly white cover of clouds. That line of light was part of the grid itself, the fabric of pure energy which lay underneath the entire universe, separating this one from the slightly younger, slightly smaller antimatter universe beneath. The Culture, like the Idirans, could now partially control that awesome power, at least sufficiently to use it for the purposes of destruction. A line of that energy, plucked from nowhere and sliced across the face of the three-dimensional universe, was down there: on and inside the Orbital, boiling the Circlesea, melting the two thousand kilometres of transparent wall, annihilating the base material itself, straight across its thirty-five-thousand-kilometre breadth.

      Vavatch, that fourteen million kilometre hoop, was starting to uncoil. A chain, it had been cut.

      There was nothing left now to hold it together; its own spin, the source of both its day-night cycle and its artificial gravity, was now the very force tearing it all apart. At about one hundred and thirty kilometres per second, Vavatch was throwing itself into outer space, unwinding like a released spring.

      The livid line of fire appeared again, and again, and again, working its way methodically round the Orbital from where the original burst had struck, neatly parcelling the entire Orbital into squares, thirty-five thousand kilometres to a side, each containing a sandwich of trillions upon trillions of tonnes of ultradense base material, water, land and air.

      Vavatch was turning white. First the gridfire seared the water into a border of clouds; then the outrushing air, spilling from each immense flat square like heavy fumes off a table, turned its load of water vapour to ice. The ocean itself, no longer held by the spin force, was shifting, spilling with infinite slowness over one edge of every plate of ruptured base material, becoming ice and swirling away into space.

      The precise, brilliant line of fire marched on, going back in reverse-spin direction, neatly dissecting the still curved, still spinning sections of the Orbital with its sudden, lethal flashes of light — light from outside the normal fabric of reality.

      Horza remembered what Jandraligeli had called it, back when Lenipobra had been enthusing about the destruction.

      'The weaponry of the end of the universe,' the Mondlidician had said. Horza watched the screen and knew what the man had meant.

      ...

      The relentless line of fire completed its circuit of the Orbital, back almost to where it had started. The Orbital was now a rosette of white flat squares backing slowly away from each other towards the stars: four hundred separate slabs of quickly freezing water, silt, land and base material, angling out above or underneath the plane of the system's planets like flat square worlds themselves.

      ...

      Just as Horza thought that the Culture would be content with that, the screen lit up once more. Everyone of those flat cards, and the Hub, of the exploded Orbital blazed once with an icy, sparkling brilliance as though a million tiny white stars were shining through each shattered piece. The light faded, and those four hundred expanses of flat worlds with their centre Hub were gone, replaced by a grid of diced shapes, each exploding away from the others as well as from the rest of the disintegrating Orbital.

      Those pieces flashed, too, bursting slowly with a billion pinpricks of light which, when they faded, left debris almost too small to make out. Vavatch was now a swollen and spiralled disc of flashing, glittering splinters, expanding very slowly against the distant stars like a ring of bright dust. The glinting, sparkling centre made it look like some huge, lidless and unblinking eye.

      The screen flashed one final time. No single points of light could be made out this time. It was as though the whole now vague but bloated image of the shattered circular world glowed with some internal heat, making a torus-shaped cloud out of it, a halo of white light with a fading iris at its centre. Then the show was over, and only the sun lit up the slowly blooming nimbus of the annihilated world. [Collapsed Antimatter used]

      -Consider Phlebas

      I think these quotes demonstrate quite handily that a single ROU or GOU which was actually motivated to do so could demolish just about anything in 40K. Totally depopulating the galaxy would be a viable option limited only by travel time and morals.

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    • To be honest, I think the Culture would just look at the 40K universe and then their Minds would just utter a big collective "nope" at the sight of the big prehistoric mess this world is according to their standards. They would be much more likely to try to manipulate them through Special Circumstances and Contact Agents than to invade this universe. But if they are attacked...well yes, any 40K universe force would be annihilated, maybe even by a single GOU. Which, by the way, are not even specifically designed for war. Seriously, the only time we saw the Culture really fighting with armies was in "Consider Phlebas" and we don't even know if they used their full potential back then...

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    • 88.171.98.229 wrote:
      To be honest, I think the Culture would just look at the 40K universe and then their Minds would just utter a big collective "nope" at the sight of the big prehistoric mess this world is according to their standards. They would be much more likely to try to manipulate them through Special Circumstances and Contact Agents than to invade this universe. But if they are attacked...well yes, any 40K universe force would be annihilated, maybe even by a single GOU. Which, by the way, are not even specifically designed for war. Seriously, the only time we saw the Culture really fighting with armies was in "Consider Phlebas" and we don't even know if they used their full potential back then...

      IIRC Consider Phlebas, while it's a good example of the Culture at war, is actually a low end as far as the showings of their technology go - which makes sense when you consider it's set some centuries before most of the other books, by the Excession era they'd advanced hugely.

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    • Well I know for a fact that no race in 40k is capable of that. Unless of course GW'll go back even further in time from the HH books and go straight back to explaining the actual capabilities of the Ancient Races. Even then they'll probably just last a couple more days. 

      Any other takers? Halo? Mass Effect? Star Wars? There are no real rules to this. Just annihilate 40k.

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    • Mass Effect could be a contender, but it depends on what race we are talking about. Asari, Humans, Turians, Krogans, Batarians...I think they would be just crushed, because of sheer man and industrial power. Like the Humans are something like 20 billion in this universe, most of them on Earth...it's a world where the major races are relatively young (the oldest of the known races that still have a lot of power in the galaxy are the Asari, and their civilization must be less than ten millenia old), so the galaxy is not really developped compared to the 40K universe. In terms of technology, I'd call it a draw, mainly because in the ME universe there symply DOES NOT exist any means of travelling in FTL for more than a few dozens of lightyears without using the mass relays, whose technology remains largely unknown ; but overall, the technology in the ME universe is more advanced than the ork and human techology, and they have a few other advantages, like the biotic powers that basically give the ability to bend space and minds (to a certains and limited extent of course) without being exposed to the warp. 

      Then, of course, it's completely different if we are talking about the Reapers for they are basically a mix of the worst (or best) aspects of the Necron and the Tyranids. The Reapers themselves are essentially sentient semi-organic and semi-synthetic ships, almost indestructible by normal means and capable of things other ships wouldn't even dream of, like landing on a planet with a fucking two kilometers long dreadnought. It's not even the worst part ; they create their armies with those of their opponents, assimilating biomass, genotypes and technology in order to turn their fallen foes against their opponents. They are basically Tyranids on steroids after the beginning of their invasion. I honestly don't know what would be the outcome of a full Reaper invasion in the 40K universe, but I'm pretty sure it would be interesting to watch. 

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    • 88.171.98.229 wrote: Mass Effect could be a contender, but it depends on what race we are talking about. Asari, Humans, Turians, Krogans, Batarians...I think they would be just crushed, because of sheer man and industrial power. Like the Humans are something like 20 billion in this universe, most of them on Earth...it's a world where the major races are relatively young (the oldest of the known races that still have a lot of power in the galaxy are the Asari, and their civilization must be less than ten millenia old), so the galaxy is not really developped compared to the 40K universe. In terms of technology, I'd call it a draw, mainly because in the ME universe there symply DOES NOT exist any means of travelling in FTL for more than a few dozens of lightyears without using the mass relays, whose technology remains largely unknown ; but overall, the technology in the ME universe is more advanced than the ork and human techology, and they have a few other advantages, like the biotic powers that basically give the ability to bend space and minds (to a certains and limited extent of course) without being exposed to the warp. 

      Then, of course, it's completely different if we are talking about the Reapers for they are basically a mix of the worst (or best) aspects of the Necron and the Tyranids. The Reapers themselves are essentially sentient semi-organic and semi-synthetic ships, almost indestructible by normal means and capable of things other ships wouldn't even dream of, like landing on a planet with a fucking two kilometers long dreadnought. It's not even the worst part ; they create their armies with those of their opponents, assimilating biomass, genotypes and technology in order to turn their fallen foes against their opponents. They are basically Tyranids on steroids after the beginning of their invasion. I honestly don't know what would be the outcome of a full Reaper invasion in the 40K universe, but I'm pretty sure it would be interesting to watch. 

      Ok first off 20 billion is a small hive world in Warhammer 40k. That's ,y first complaint. I agree with the other points also I agree. But I think the reappears though would be hard pressed I mean it is a possibility until they get to the eye of terror

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    • Well the Reapers encountering the chaos gods, that would be an interesting thing...I'm not sure it's possible to "corrupt them" actually. Though they can be very intelligent in the strategies they design, the Reapers do not think that much outside of "what is the most efficient way to destroy all intelligent life in the galaxy this cycle ?" and so far as I know they don't have feelings. Then again, imagining the Reapers arriving in the Eye of Terror would be quite a sight...

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    • Haha they would get torn apart by warpstorms and I can only imagine if they came across the chaos gods domains

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    • Speaking of Chaos Gods and more generally huge deadly horrible things that lie in the dark...someone thought about CThulu ? 

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    • no..lol i only think of the ctan at that point

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    • To all those mentioning Mass Effect as even remotely relevant, allow me to do a thing.

      Codex quote on Reaper weaponry:
      The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal.

      One of if not the most powerful space combat weapons in ME tops out at the hundreds of kilotons per shot.

      Compare to the following:

      They knew so little of the reality of things, however. High above in orbit, it was only the warship Thanato that fired on the city, and even then it was not with the vessel’s most powerful cannons. The people did not know that a fleet of craft were poised in silence around their sister ship, watchful and waiting. Had all the vessels of the Warmaster’s flotilla unleashed their killpower, then indeed those fears would have come true; the planet’s crust cracked, the continents sliced open.
      -Nemesis
      Azkaellon felt a chill run through him. The hammer of the Emperor’s will was a powerful force, and in the wars of the Great Crusade it had often been regrettably necessary to punish whole worlds with ruthless intent. The Guard Commander had seen cities wiped off the map in the blink of an eye, vaporised by lance cannons and macronuclear bombs; continents seared by laser barrages; skies scorched. And while the power to kill a world? to truly, utterly destroy it? had always rested within the reach of the Legiones Astartes, it was not an order that Azkaellon had ever witnessed in execution. ‘All shipmasters report guns at ready.’ DuCade read back the status in a dead voice, as if she was unwilling to believe what would come next.

      ...

      The void surrounding the planet Holst flashed crimson as energies were liberated and directed, as a surge of weapons of mass destruction hurtled from launch tubes and bore down upon the turbulent world. Energy pulses struck first, moving at the speed of light and boiling away the vapours shrouding the sky, punching into the nitrogen ice surface. Rocky under-strata that had been sealed beneath permafrost for millions of years were burned clean and exposed.

      The torpedo barrage came seconds after, great fusion-powered rockets tipped with lethal warheads. Each had the power to lay waste to a continent, but in this instance they were combined with force enough to spear the molten heart of a world. Whatever unreal influence had spread its cancerous instrumentality through Holst-Prime Hive spilled into the matter of the planet itself.
      -Fear to Tread
      "A mighty Repulsive-class Grand Cruiser with powerful reactors and heavy armour in sloping facets of adamantine and ceramite scores of metres thick, the vessel carried a weight of armament and ordnance that could reduce a continent to ruins with a single salvo."

      Have some showings which are sadly a but vague due to the language used but which imply gigaton-range firepower. Millions of kilotons.

      Now, let me do another related thing.

      Codex quote on ME space combat:
      Ship mobility dominates space combat; the primary objective is to align the mass accelerator along the bow with the opposing vessel's broadside. Battles typically play out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers, though assault through defended mass relays often occur at "knife fight" ranges as close as a few dozen kilometers.
      Another quote from the section on combat tactics:
      The largest-ranged combat occurs between dreadnoughts, whose projectiles have the highest velocity but are the least maneuverable. The shortest-range combat is between frigates, which have the slowest projectile velocities and highest maneuverability. Opposing dreadnoughts open with main gun artillery duel at EXTREME ranges of tens of thousands of kilometers.

      Capitalization on "extreme" not mine.

      Compare to the following:

      “The onrushing daemon ships wore the fusillade. Their shields wobbled like wet glass as they soaked up the punishment. They were half a million kilometres out, closing at a sharp angle to the system plane, as if they intended to perform a slashing strike down and across the Imperial gunline.”
      -Salvation's Reach

      half a light-second. Note that this isn't described as a particularly long range either.

      And another thing.

      A dreadnought's power lies in the length of its main gun. Dreadnoughts range from 800 meters to one kilometer long, with main guns of commensurate length. An 800-meter mass-accelerator is capable of accelerating one 20 kg slug to a velocity of 4025 km/s (1.3% of light speed) every two seconds. Each slug has the kinetic energy of 38 kilotons of TNT, enough to destroy the infrastructure of a mid-sized city and kill half a million people.

      This is the speed of a projectile fired from one of ME's larger warships.

      Compare to:

      “For the second time in less than an hour, space tore open. The reality fissure leapt and crackled like a luminous cephalopod, lashing tendrils of warp energy into real space that twisted out, fizzled and faded. Non-baryonic light flared brilliantly through the tear, backlighting the arriving ships. Monumental silhouettes, they were shot forward into real space. Four ships, one of them very large. And they were moving. Point seven five light at least, cutting straight towards Herodor. They did not slow down. They were moving at cruise speed. Attack Speed.
      -One of the Gaunt's Ghosts stories (not sure which, quote source only references an omnibus)
      “Several light minutes inside the orbit of Eri, the Phalanx exploded from a warp gate with violent concussion, sending sheets of exotic lightning radiating out and away into the void. Delicate sensory devices dotting the surface of the tenth planet registered the new arrival and immediately communicated reports to relay stations on Pluto and Uranus, where in turn they would be sent onward by astropath to Terra and her dominions. The return of the Imperial Fists to humanity's cradle was long overdue. By rights there should have been celebrations and great ceremony on many of the outer colonies of the solar system to mark it. Instead, the Phalanx came in with speed and ruthless purpose, not in a stately cruise around the solar systems outlying worlds.

      The mammoth craft did not fly the pennants and banners associated with the triumphant arrival of a heroic vessel. Instead, the colour on her masts and the laser lamps about the Phalanx's circumference were lit for urgency. Patrol ships made way, no captain daring to challenge the Master of the Imperial Fists for his haste. Drives flaring like captured stars, the fortress-vessel passed in through the ragged edge of the Oort Cloud at three-quarters the speed of light, down into the place of the ecliptic, crossing the orbit of Neptune in a flicker of dazzling radiation.”

      -Flight of the Eisenstein
      Close-range lascannons on the hull of the drive module blew apart the paper-thin sheath of metals hiding the aft section of the ship, and the Ultio's drive section blasted free of the station wreck in a pulse of detonation. Fusion motors unleashed the tiny suns at their cores and pushed the craft away, climbing the acceleration curve in a glitter of void shields and displaced energy. In moments, the vessel was rising to one-quarter lightspeed.”
      -Nemesis

      Behold the speed of 40K ships. Not the shots they fire to hit each other, the ships themselves.

      And before any ME fanboy/fangirl thinks of using Virmire nuke calcs to produce FTL multi-teraton mass accelerators, I'll point out that this requires incredibly dodgy scaling based on taking blatant outliers that are contradicted by the setting's internal logic and coherence as well as pretty much all other information we have about ME space combat. If you proceed to use this dishonest tactic anyway it will only provoke me to do the same for 40K.

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    • Ok, I suppose Mass Effect is definitely out (to be fair, even as a ME fan, this outcome was logical. The ME universe is very small and young compared to the 40K universe). Then, apart from the Culture (aka motherfucking gods) do we have antything left that could compete with the 40K universe ? 

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    • The only big weakness the Imperium of man has compared to other Sci-Fi races/factions is that their technology is stagnating, mainly because the Adeptus Mechanicus thinks that innovating or developing new technology is "Techno-Heresy". The thing i dislike about the AM is that they literally have a little ritual for every single piece they put on a tank, robot, battleship etc which is just...ridiculous. If the Emperor just came back and fixed most of these problems, then the Imperium wouldn't be a shitty place to live in..but that's grimdark for you. 

      The Imperial Guard is clearly inspired by WW1 and WW2 armies (especially if you look at the Leman russ or chimera) with a little mix of modern day millitary and futuristic technology. 

      TBH i think the 40k universe would utterly decimate any Sci-fi faction when it comes to ground battles, but when it comes to space battles it's still pretty hard to defeat the 40k universe. It would require an overwhelming amount of fleets and firepower to be able to take down a major fleet of the 40k universe. 

      That's my honest point of view on this. 

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    • 195.204.237.81 wrote:
      TBH i think the 40k universe would utterly decimate any Sci-fi faction when it comes to ground battles

      Your ignorance of several things both amuses and saddens me. Will get quotes in the morning.

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    • 195.204.237.81 wrote:
      The only big weakness the Imperium of man has compared to other Sci-Fi races/factions is that their technology is stagnating, mainly because the Adeptus Mechanicus thinks that innovating or developing new technology is "Techno-Heresy". The thing i dislike about the AM is that they literally have a little ritual for every single piece they put on a tank, robot, battleship etc which is just...ridiculous. If the Emperor just came back and fixed most of these problems, then the Imperium wouldn't be a shitty place to live in..but that's grimdark for you. 

      The Imperial Guard is clearly inspired by WW1 and WW2 armies (especially if you look at the Leman russ or chimera) with a little mix of modern day millitary and futuristic technology. 

      TBH i think the 40k universe would utterly decimate any Sci-fi faction when it comes to ground battles, but when it comes to space battles it's still pretty hard to defeat the 40k universe. It would require an overwhelming amount of fleets and firepower to be able to take down a major fleet of the 40k universe. 

      That's my honest point of view on this. 

      Actually the Mechanicus's prayers are legit. Both for the Emperor and for the actual meaning. See, Mars and all those other cobbled chords of humanoids are a completely different breed from the Imperium and they have been even after the Emperor reunited Earth. They are a race apart, who technically worship a different God from the Imperium, but some see the Emperor as that God when they finally met him. Of course the Emperor never wanted to be worshipped BUT he was wise enough for Mars to continue worshipping the Machine God. Because in all seriousness... he was the one who made it. Or... at least imprisoned it to use for his own purposes. The real deity they worship is an C'tan called the Void Dragon. Basically the most powerful C'tan ever or at least left standing. And this has been confirmed in a HH book, a Necron attack on Mars, and a transcript from Abaddon.

      Long story short, the Machine spirits are real, from every little cog to the largest Novacannon. 

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    • About ground battles, that's not only a matter of people, that's a matter of who is in charge too. take the Imperial Guard for exemple. They are a potent force, but they get slaugtered by billions because of old WW1 tactics and "for the Emprah !" -style charges. IF they used modern combined arms techniques and if the Imperial Fleet did half of its job (aka giving them some fucking air support and orbital strikes), they would roll over any force in the 40K Universe. 

      Then, about the whole "you can't beat the Imperium on ground and space..." Well, if you think about classic sci-fi settings, with a technology that is ahead of us but not that much (a few centuries to a few millenia), yes it's true, because of sheer manpower and industrial output.

      THEN, if we consider much more advanced civilisations, with really advanced tech that is completely different well...remember the ships from the Dark Age of Technolgy that can fire black holes ? Imagine that ten times better and you have civilisations like the Culture. As an example (but I'm pretty sure we can find other civilisations like this), their ships are mainly made of magnetic fields, they can interact with our dimension while travelling in an other, they can teleport antimatter weapons inside your ship, they can replicate them as much as they want (oh, and the ships are sentient too, and a 80 km long ship can be operated by a single IA)...so if we go to these kind of settings, I know civilisations that could crush ten imperium of man before breakfast. 

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    • 88.171.98.229 wrote:
      About ground battles, that's not only a matter of people, that's a matter of who is in charge too. take the Imperial Guard for exemple. They are a potent force, but they get slaugtered by billions because of old WW1 tactics and "for the Emprah !" -style charges. IF they used modern combined arms techniques and if the Imperial Fleet did half of its job (aka giving them some fucking air support and orbital strikes), they would roll over any force in the 40K Universe. 

      Then, about the whole "you can't beat the Imperium on ground and space..." Well, if you think about classic sci-fi settings, with a technology that is ahead of us but not that much (a few centuries to a few millenia), yes it's true, because of sheer manpower and industrial output.


      Well I know for a fact that even though the Imperials can pack a punch in space they can't really stand up against reality-bending... whatever the heck Culture is. Also I don't know what Culture is capable of in the ground (If they even need to use ground forces) but you're a bit wrong on what the Imperium itself is capable of.

      Contrary to popular belief, the Imperium DOES use combined-armed-tactics with armour and mechanized infantry as the tip of the spear. Whatever the armour and the artillery does not blast to pieces, the infantry (Usually vets or Stormtroopers on Valkryies) clear out the fortifications with long ranged Titans in support. The Navy, though not in direct command under the Guard, does support the Guard wherever they can. Usually when the Imperium uses Orbital Bombardments its to destroy an infestation or a Exterminatus. Orbital Bombardments don't really leave many resources to use for the Imperium after the battle... Anyways, if there is an extreme amount of resistance then the Space Marines are deployed, usually on their own accord, but almost always either striking at enemy Commands, or relieving beleageured Imperial units.

      If the Imperium does not have the numbers to take the offensive, then they will go on the defensive. Like REAL defensive. If they are defending a city, then every street and building will either have a fortified checkpoint or become a fortress. If they are on the plains they will build an extreme amount of defensive redoubts, bunkers, and trenches supported with concrete on steroids (Ferrocrete its called I think?).

      All this is coupled with whatever Imperial Regiment is in the battle. And due to the massive amount of resources the Imperium will send in a battle there will be a huge diversified amount of entire regiments given to just one or two roles. Inflexible, yes, but the Imperium works around that by always deploying regiments with different roles in the important battles. Like the "Panzer" Steel Legions, the "Prussian" Death Korps of Krieg, the "Rambo" Catachatans, the "Airborne" Elysians, and the "Russian/Finnish" Vallhallans.

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    • Thanks for correcting my false opinions about the Imperial Guard, though I still think they lack sometimes good commanding officers - in fact, I think my opinions mainly come from the point of view of people who don't play the imperial guard. But to be fair in the books it is quite mixed - sometimes they use proper tactics and kick ass, sometimes they are just thrown into the meat grinder just for the Space Marines to save the day. We don't really know the standard. 

      The Culture, as mentionned above in this thread, is a very advanced human-like civilisation sin Iain M Banks novels and short stories. I am not going to discuss what they are capable of, as it as already been done above. My point here would be the following : there is little point in comparing civilisations that are not on a generally identical technological level (aka a few millenia at best). Because the technology of the Culture is so advanced that they actually do things that even the Eldar would qualify as magic. Actually in the books we saw the Culture going to war once. and they were capable of destroying stars with one single medium ship. Or create ships that would separate in billions of other ships capable of producing copies of themselves. or teleporting weapons into your own ships. They have security protocols that enable them to immediatly deviate energy to an other dimension, thus making their ships nearly undestructible with classic, not dimensio-bending weapons. Their most basic weapon is semi-sentient and can destroy an entire city. In one novel, they teleport the severed head of one of their operatives aboard a ship after he is beheaded and within one month the guy has a new body. 

      It's not even fun, these kind of civilizations are cheating because of sheer technological and scientific advance. It's a bit like in Civilization where you have access to tanks and helicopters when your opponent has knights. So if we are looking for serious contenders I think we should stick to similar worlds in terms of tech level. 

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    • Kriegsman wrote:
      Also I don't know what Culture is capable of in the ground (If they even need to use ground forces)

      The Culture doesn't have a true planetary military, they don't care about planets enough to really bother with one (most of the organic population live on starships, space stations or megastructures). If they actually decided to fight on a planetary surface for whatever reason it'd be done by combat Drones and/or or Special Circumstances agents, who have some pretty crazy equipment available to them like Gelsuits.

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    • Slug gunner fan wrote:
      Kriegsman wrote:
      Also I don't know what Culture is capable of in the ground (If they even need to use ground forces)
      The Culture doesn't have a true planetary military, they don't care about planets enough to really bother with one (most of the organic population live on starships, space stations or megastructures). If they actually decided to fight on a planetary surface for whatever reason it'd be done by combat Drones and/or or Special Circumstances agents, who have some pretty crazy equipment available to them like Gelsuits.

      Well, I'll tell you one thing. If I had the choice of living in 40k or the most devestating period in any sci-fi universe... I would choose the latter. 40k Weapons might not be destructive enough to shatter galaxies, but the prospect of getting damned in some stupid sorcery from Chaos or getting captured by those Dark Eldar pirates is much less preferable than dying because of some super-mega-advanced weapon.

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    • Slug gunner fan wrote:
      Kriegsman wrote:
      Also I don't know what Culture is capable of in the ground (If they even need to use ground forces)
      The Culture doesn't have a true planetary military, they don't care about planets enough to really bother with one (most of the organic population live on starships, space stations or megastructures). If they actually decided to fight on a planetary surface for whatever reason it'd be done by combat Drones and/or or Special Circumstances agents, who have some pretty crazy equipment available to them like Gelsuits.


      This.

      When required we've seen the culture use combat hardened drones, knife missiles and the terror inducing thing we see deployed aginst the chelgrians in "use of weapons" amongst many others. 

      It's not just that they don't care about planets per se (although they don't, at least as far as holdings or assets of their own), it's more that any civilisation that still thought in terms of planets as a resource or fighting conventional ground battles simply wouldn't be an opponent. They often interfere in lesser societies affairs, deliberately masking their own capabilities so as to limit the culture shock that might otherwise result.

      We see in Use of Weapons that SC agents have access to small arms that match titan level firepower and they are considered outdated as a paradigm, not just in the specific. 

      Frankly a large part of the way the Culture novels are written revolves around the moral questions arising from the use of absolutely overwhelming capabilities and that requires them to be written in a way that the Culture is pretty much beyond conventional threats so as to remove self preservation as a conflicting motive in most cases.

      For those who aren't aware of these books suffice to say there is pretty much nothing in the 40k universe that could threaten the Culture in any arena. Their ships are completely autonomous characters in their own right in many cases individually posessing power beyond the entire IoM and all it's various branches combined. They have rapid firing point defence weapons that outmatch nova cannons.

      The technology available to their average civilians is WAY beyond anything the eldar, or likely DAoT humans, posess. Their human agents are part of an organisation called Special Circumstances whose personal kit often includes self aware weaponry that could easily annihilate Space Marine legions, Primarch included, without being even put in any credible danger.

      Again, this isn't fan wank competition, merely a literary device. The IoM is portrayed as being under constant threat in order for the setting to work. The Culture is portrayed as being largely beyond threat precisely to allow the characters to explore the moral questions raised without being motivated by self interest.

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    • 88.171.97.94 wrote:


      Thanks for correcting my false opinions about the Imperial Guard, though I still think they lack sometimes good commanding officers - in fact, I think my opinions mainly come from the point of view of people who don't play the imperial guard. But to be fair in the books it is quite mixed - sometimes they use proper tactics and kick ass, sometimes they are just thrown into the meat grinder just for the Space Marines to save the day. We don't really know the standard.

      There honestly isn't a standard; things can and do go both ways with the Imperium's regular military (I'm not factoring the Space Marines and Sisters of Battle in this). As you guessed, it basically does come down to the quality of the officers in the chain of command. On the one hand you have people like Lord General Zyvan from the Ciaphas Cain books, portrayed as a pragmatic officer who values his soldiers' lives and has a proper understanding of combined arms. On the other end of the scale there's plenty of Guard generals who got promoted more on connections than competence and actually manage to fail at simple human-wave tactics.

      There's also a third category of people like that twat in the early Gaunt's Ghosts novels who had a personal vendetta with Gaunt and repeatedly sent the Ghosts, a unit designed as something akin to USMC Force Recon (i.e. light infantry specialized as forward scouts and raiders, whereas Ciaphas Cain's Valhallan 597th are line infantry with mechanized support) into deathtraps and pitched battles on purpose, intending to get them all killed.

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    • Stargate

      Star Trek

      Silentium Halo 

      Culture 

      That's all I can think of right now. Unless you want me to state the obvious like Doctor Who, Marvel and other hybrid sci-fi

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    • The Down Streamers are up there

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    • 70.195.135.75 wrote:
      The Down Streamers are up there

      Aren't they really vaguely described and hard to quantify though? I've heard this mentioned a few times, though I've not read the manifold novels.

      Also, some more entities that I'm pretty sure could destroy 40K: The higher-end Planetary Annihilation Self-insert Commanders. Fusou and post-Fafner Drich could do it honestly pretty trivially barring the most wanked interpretations of Chaos and the C'Tan. I'm less sure about the others' ability to handle Warp shenanigans and the C'Tan (at first at least, all of them are known for appropriating local technology for their own use and have meta-knowledge of where to get Warp inihibition tech) but they could still take on the conventional militaries of the setting with enough prep time.

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    • Well following my comment about the down streamers though I read a post about them and they easily blow everything I've ever read out of the water.

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    • From Stephen Baxter's Manifold books.

      Quotes on their power:

      The Downstreamers are a posthuman civilization, the descendents of humanity who live some 10^117 years in the future. Their abilities and feats include:

      • Time travel - They can travel to any point in the past and move between timelines at will, or alter timelines
      • Universe/dimensional travel - They can travel to other universes along the Manifold (sort of like a multiverse)
      • Omniscience - Their neutrino computer at the end of time contains all of the information, down to the quantum level, completely describing the history of the entire universe from the Big Bang to the end of time, but not only that, they have complete knowledge of all possible timelines. So they know everything that is happening, ever happened, ever will happen, ever could have happened, and ever might happen.

      They do not have physical bodies (non - corporeal beings). They can transmit influence back through time and make subtle alterations to the DNA of organisms like human beings, and also give them their knowledge.

      They can built time portals made out of molded timespace itself (sort of similar to Xeelee construction material). Said portals are completely indestructible to brute force, and can transport anything that goes through them to any point in time or space, or even to other universes along the Manifold. The time portal still existed, completely undamaged or altered, 10^117 years in the future, when all the matter in the universe had decayed to nothingness and the heat death had used up all energy. The portals can project a field around them that can alter the laws of physics- it's powerful enough to shield a normal human in a spacesuit (made with earth technology from the mid - 21st century, not very advanced) from thousands of Big Bangs and Big Crunches per second.

      They managed to send back information and genetically reprogram human children (none of them more than 8 years old) to increase their intelligence enough to build a space/time ship that was bigger on the inside than the outside (like a TARDIS), also immune to brute force weaponry (it took a nuke undamaged, then flew to the moon, and normal humans on earth attempted to destroy it for over 200 years with more advanced weapons but they did nothing). Time flows faster inside than outside the ship, so 200 years outside was only a few minutes inside. It could also send objects back through time to specific coordinates in time and space. In the end the Downstreamers sent back instructions for the children to build a quark strangelet - powered device that induced a vacuum decay, creating an expanding sphere of altered physics that spread across the universe at the speed of light, destroying and remaking the entire Manifold of universes so new life could arise. Apparently the Downstreamers survived the recreation of the multiverse, and actually transformed it from a finite multiverse with a limited number of universes, to an infinite multiverse with an unlimited number of universes. In this infinite multiverse, every possible universe that could exist does. Seeing that those universes where extraterrestrial life existed usually ended up with humans being killed early or never evolving due to alien interference, the Downstreamers isolated a sheaf of universes (a sub multiverse) where humans were the only intelligent lifeforms in the universe. They then built the Red Moon, a moon with a powerful "World Engine" inside of it that would wander this multiversal sheaf, teleporting from universe to universe, each time appearing in orbit around that universe's Earth (displacing that earth's original moon if it had one).

      It would then open a portal that would teleport various hominids between earth and the Red Moon, and return again millions of years later to teleport them back. That is why different species of hominids evolved on different planets in the multiversal sheaf (this was done to help human evolution). Bump, also it should be mentioned that before they reached their strongest form, they were building gravity mines that were stated in Phase Space to span the entire universe (and this was trillions of trillions of years in the future, when the universe had expanded to be many times its current size).

      In case you didn't get the implication, these things would utterly dwarf TTGL. And this was just a construction project from an earlier point in their civilization. Okay, new info: In one of the stories in Phase Space, called Refugium, there is an artifact that might have been built by the Downstreamers. According to the author's notes at the back of the book, this story takes place in one of the universes of the Manifold, so it's canon to the Manifold series. In this story, as soon as sentient life evolves and develops a civilization advanced enough to travel into space (anywhere in the universe), these ships referred to as "bubbles" are sent to their planet. When someone enters a bubble, it immediately takes off at FTL speed across the universe and deposits the occupants in a custom - made ecosystem to support their type of life, and entire fleets of these bubbles seek out and transport every being of that race to this ecoystem.

      The ecoystems are built around a cosmic string, which is said to encircle the entire universe. It was speculated that there were enough diverse ecosystems to accomodate every possible type of life in that universe. Each ecosystem had its own sun, and was powered by the Cosmic String. The ecosystem to support humans alone was large enough to fit 10,000 earths. The purpose of this was to allow all of the intelligent races in the universe to live in a safe place so they could survive to the end of the universe, without worrying about asteroid impacts, stars exploding or changing phase, etc. Also, the bubbles are capable of reading minds and seeing who each occupant cares about the most and bringing them to their location in the ecosystem, so someone would have their family and friends brought to them, without having to look across the whole ecosystem for them.

      It was never stated who built this system, but the Downstreamers are a likely candidate (at least, I know of no other race in the Manifoldverse capable of doing such a thing). Okay, after finishing The Gravity Mine, I have new info:

      Relatively early in the Downstreamers' history, they had built many gravity mines around supermassive black holes, the first one being around the black hole that formed the remains of the Milky Way galaxy. Each of these structures was galaxy - sized or so. At this point, it was stated that the universe had expanded to 10 quadrillion times its current size. Even at this point, the Downstreamers had shed their physical bodies and lived as energy beings, with a group consciousness (but individuals could form periodically and then rejoin the main group).

      Even farther in the future, they were herding together all of the last remaining supercluster-sized black holes in the universe with a massive structure that spanned the entire universe (I mentioned this in an earlier post). The universe was much larger then, since it had been a much longer time since the last part of the story. So this thing was absolutely ginormous - maybe a low - end estimate would be 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 light - years across (based on the size of the black holes and the previous information, as well as cosmic inflation).

      EDIT: I forgot to mention, at this time the Downstreamers were having internal conflicts and wars, and the result of these was destruction and damage of large parts of this structure (called The City). In other words, significant portions of this thing were ripped apart by their weapons/powers, and this was at a relatively weak stage of their civilization.

      Even later on, all the matter in the universe had decayed and only a few black holes remained, but the Downstreamers were still active, although they were in forms that each spread across galaxy - sized areas or larger, and took the entire lifetime of modern civilizations to form a thought. One of them found a naked singularity and modified it to develop into a new form of sapient life.

      This was all before they reached their final neutrino state, developed their time mastery, and remade the multiverse. New info: In one universe in the new infinite Manifold, there was a device (again, never confirmed to be built by the Downstreamers, but possibly could have been) that surrounded the solar system and created a perfect illusion down to the quantum level that was indistinguishable from reality. This was said to take more energy than an entire galaxy had. Anyway, some humans on earth suspected this (due to the Fermi Paradox) and tried to bounce a laser off a planet in Alpha Centauri, because this was an expansion faster than the device would have predicted, so it wouldn't have set up the illusion that far. It worked, and the simulation started to collapse, with objects closer and closer to the sun disappearing/shifting to alternate forms. It was not made clear in the story whether these alternate possibilities (for example Neptune's moon Triton being in different orbits, being two moons, not being a moon, being a ring system instead) were actually alternate universes/timelines invading the normal one, or just alternate states of the simulation.

      Anyway, the phenomena was slowly approaching earth, and in the end it consumed the earth (along with the rest of the solar system). We don't know what happened next as the story ended there.

      Now this may seem to contradict previous information (namely the Downstreamers' omniscience). However, I can think of three possibilities to explain this:

      1. The Downstreamers were only omniscient in the original, finite multiverse. Once they expanded it into an infinite multiverse and created other infinite multiverses, they still had their original amount of power and knowledge (or perhaps even more), but it wasn't enough to predict everything in infinite universes.

      2. This "planetarium" illusion (That's how it was referred to in the story) was an autonomous device (like the Red Moon in Manifold: Origin) that was not supervised directly by the Downstreamers. This is the hypothesis I personally think is right.

      3. It was built by someone other than the Downstreamers.

      Anyway, that was the last Manifold related story in Phase Space, so unless there are more stories in this series I don't know about, or Stephen Baxter writes more in the future, this respect/capability thread is complete.

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    • Yeah, I don't really enjoy reading about immortal godlike transhuman wank. I prefer characters that are closer to earth who I can actually relate to.

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    • StarSword wrote:
      Yeah, I don't really enjoy reading about immortal godlike transhuman wank. I prefer characters that are closer to earth who I can actually relate to.

      Immortal godlike transhmans can be relatable if written right. Though your point stands in this case because Baxter's characters are often uninteresting. I still like a lot of his writing but I'll concede that it has flaws and characterisation is one of them.

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    • In short, then, the answer to the OP's question is yes. There are many sci fi protagonists which could easily outdo the IoM/40k universe. In fact depsite their perceived warlike nature they actually sit quite far down the scale.

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    • So we've sort of come to that conclusion only based only on what the IoM could do in its present state in the Canon. I didn't see much mention of the Tau, Eldar, or Necrons who are of the highest tech in 40k. To be fair, plenty of scifis could take on the Imperium as it is in M41.999, but would the Halo forerunners for example, stand much of a chance against the Necrons at the height of the War in Heaven? Both would have been around at about the same time in each universe. I believe the only scifis which could take on the whole of 40k would be ones involving an active Type 5 civilization, since those can simply manipulate all existance. Type 4 civilizations would be a huge threat, but you could consider 40k's contenders at that level to be the Tyranids and the Old Ones since both of those are intergalactic forces.

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    • MasterofAgony693 wrote:
      So we've sort of come to that conclusion only based only on what the IoM could do in its present state in the Canon. I didn't see much mention of the Tau, Eldar, or Necrons who are of the highest tech in 40k. To be fair, plenty of scifis could take on the Imperium as it is in M41.999, but would the Halo forerunners for example, stand much of a chance against the Necrons at the height of the War in Heaven? Both would have been around at about the same time in each universe. I believe the only scifis which could take on the whole of 40k would be ones involving an active Type 5 civilization, since those can simply manipulate all existance. Type 4 civilizations would be a huge threat, but you could consider 40k's contenders at that level to be the Tyranids and the Old Ones since both of those are intergalactic forces.

      I agree with Agony (are they Dark Eldar?) about the type five civ thing and also I started a disscussion on Inquisitor Adrastia (THE SCION OF THE EMPERER OF MANKIND!?) which if the games and Eldar Campian are offical canon opens a new can of worms for Sub-Sector Aurlia  

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    • I satrted it before i got an acount

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    • Essentially much of the warlike nature of the IoM is pretty misleading. They are aggressive and have an awful lot of martial trappings that are designed aesthetically to appeal to fans of violent Sci Fi settings, but a like for like analysis of their actual capabilities suggests they are far from being untouchable when compared to many other protagonist factions, including several ostensibly more peaceful ones.

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    • This is not a sci-fi universe, but I will say this: future humans in real life. In 40,000 years, each individual human will be able to beat the entire 40k universe thousands of times over. Just consider this: in the last 50 years, lifespans have gone from 40 years to >100 years. We have gone from having to write physical letters to having face-to-face conversations across the world. A hundred years ago, a man on the moon would have been what 40k is considered now. But we did it. Just imagine that after 40,000 years. We will be like Q from Star Trek.

      But, since this is about sci-fi universes, I am going to say the Star Wars universe. Just consider a Jedi vs a Space Marine. Sure, the Space Marine might be able to take a few bullets, but a Jedi could cut through their armor. Also, Jedi have psychic power on the level of the Emperor, and they have thousands of them. Tens of thousands. Also, a Star Destroyer may not be as big as a 40k ship, but it has ten times as advanced of weaponry. You may bring up the Nova Cannon, but a few Star Destroyers have had Death Star-style superlasers which could easily outperform the Nova Cannon.

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    • 68.189.169.26 wrote:
      This is not a sci-fi universe, but I will say this: future humans in real life. In 40,000 years, each individual human will be able to beat the entire 40k universe thousands of times over. Just consider this: in the last 50 years, lifespans have gone from 40 years to >100 years. We have gone from having to write physical letters to having face-to-face conversations across the world. A hundred years ago, a man on the moon would have been what 40k is considered now. But we did it. Just imagine that after 40,000 years. We will be like Q from Star Trek.

      But, since this is about sci-fi universes, I am going to say the Star Wars universe. Just consider a Jedi vs a Space Marine. Sure, the Space Marine might be able to take a few bullets, but a Jedi could cut through their armor. Also, Jedi have psychic power on the level of the Emperor, and they have thousands of them. Tens of thousands. Also, a Star Destroyer may not be as big as a 40k ship, but it has ten times as advanced of weaponry. You may bring up the Nova Cannon, but a few Star Destroyers have had Death Star-style superlasers which could easily outperform the Nova Cannon.

      Emp is better than the best jedi and if you look at his page you will see that he has done lots of cool things (immortal, probably can ressecrt when dies). Also lightsabers can't cut EVERYTHING (BESKATAR or Madolrian Iron). Sure they ca cut through a lot but at the end of the day vthe space marine would simply ignore or shoulder charge the jedi. Then there are Grey Knights and the Libarians who are Space Marine Jedi so your jedi point is invalid. And then We have Chaos, Nids and the 'Crons who would rip the galaxy apart. Then the dark Eladr would just raid courosant and kill/ torture the senate/ Darth Sidous and broadcast it to everyone in the galaxy.

      Therefore your point is invalid

      READ BOTH THESE UNIVEVERSE LORE AND THEN MAKE YOUR DESCION

      P.s. The Futre humans part is reasonable but a bit over the top.

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    • 68.189.169.26 wrote:
      This is not a sci-fi universe, but I will say this: future humans in real life. In 40,000 years, each individual human will be able to beat the entire 40k universe thousands of times over. Just consider this: in the last 50 years, lifespans have gone from 40 years to >100 years. We have gone from having to write physical letters to having face-to-face conversations across the world. A hundred years ago, a man on the moon would have been what 40k is considered now. But we did it. Just imagine that after 40,000 years. We will be like Q from Star Trek.

      This is not how evolution, technological development or physics work. If we're even still here in 40,000 years we'll still have those old stumbling blocks of relativity, thermodynamics and other physical laws that just about everyone in 40K canonically has various ways around. Real life physics are not 40K physics and the tech that can be procued by such means does not approach the capabilities of anything but the poorest, lowest-quality 40K tech. We'd be outgunned, outhaxxed and outmaneuvered at every turn.

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    • Oh the joy of the mechanics and their Physics breaking weapons XD

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    • 68.189.169.26 wrote:
      This is not a sci-fi universe, but I will say this: future humans in real life. In 40,000 years, each individual human will be able to beat the entire 40k universe thousands of times over. Just consider this: in the last 50 years, lifespans have gone from 40 years to >100 years. We have gone from having to write physical letters to having face-to-face conversations across the world. A hundred years ago, a man on the moon would have been what 40k is considered now. But we did it. Just imagine that after 40,000 years. We will be like Q from Star Trek.

      But, since this is about sci-fi universes, I am going to say the Star Wars universe. Just consider a Jedi vs a Space Marine. Sure, the Space Marine might be able to take a few bullets, but a Jedi could cut through their armor. Also, Jedi have psychic power on the level of the Emperor, and they have thousands of them. Tens of thousands. Also, a Star Destroyer may not be as big as a 40k ship, but it has ten times as advanced of weaponry. You may bring up the Nova Cannon, but a few Star Destroyers have had Death Star-style superlasers which could easily outperform the Nova Cannon.

      For the everloving benevolence of the God Emperor, bitch please, do not bring up this rubbish.

      1. Star Wars Ships are smaller and have far less people aboard and are not that suited to boarding actions

      2. The SW military is not fighting with as many numbers as w40k in any theatre. Aka, as soon as they have to hold ground to have a base of operations, to resupply and so on, they are in deep shit. The Imperium can simply drown them in bodies and still come out in top with 99% losses (if they do not use Exterminatus, which is a rather common occurence in w40k as opposed to star wars)

      3. The W40k Imperium is constantly fighting against enemies, their whole production is geared towards military strength.

      4.The W40k Imperium is far more united for a single purpose than an force in Star Wars.

      5. Last time I checked, no Jedi had galaxy spanning power, which Emps has. Thus no argument and if you wanna go the Psyker lane, sorry, the W40k Imperium has millions of those in employ on a daily basis, a number never reached in SW (also the Gal Imp of SW has less than a handful of powerful force users with Vader, Imperator and depending on the source, that one dude raised by Vader) the rebels have nobody aside from Kenobi and Yoda.

      -->sidenote: you are aware of Pariahs?


      6. you want to go into basic physics of directed energy weaponry (as it is used in star wars) versus simple projectiles? aka ground war, your sw troops do not even get into range because of a simple artillery bombardment.

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    • *cough* I think you folks are going to want to take a look at how powerful the starships in Star Wars really are. Sure, they might be smaller than the ships in Warhammer, but size is not all that matters. You see, the Heavy Turbolaser, a Star Wars ship's main weapon, has an output of single to triple digit, get this, Teratons, with a probable average being 50 Teratons. Now, to put that into perspective, the most powerful explosive ever detonated by mankind, Tsar Bomba, had an output of roughly 50 Megatons, meaning that a single Heavy Turbolaser blast is literally a billion times more powerful than that. This planet-shattering amount of power could, if it was an explosion, quite literally shatter small planets, and completely scorch larger planets clean of all life. It is the power of an Exterminatus, condensed down into a single bolt of energy. Needless to say, finding a Void Shield capable of repelling such amounts of power is quite difficult, and then take into account that thse cannons can be fired every five or so seconds. And then take into account that the basic Imperial-I Star Destroyer bears a total of twenty Heavy Turbolaser barrels.

      And then take into account that Star Wars actually does have a truly large starship classification, the Star Dreadnought, with its prime example being the 19km long Executor-class Star Dreadnought. These massive ships, which even eclipse the largest ships the Imperium has access to, bear no less than two thousand Heavy Turbolasers. Two thousand cannons, each one of them capable of wreaking havoc on even the largest of the Imperium's ships, while the Executor itself is capable of reflecting broadsides of Turbolaser shots without so much as a flicker in the shielding.


      Of course, this nigh-invincibility in space is countered by the relative uselessness of the ground forces in Star Wars. Stormtroopers and such, while they might individually be better-equipped and more powerful than Guardsmen, have numbers that are so tiny in comparison that they can just be wiped away in moments. The most powerful asset the Star Wars universe has is the Force-sensitives. Powerful Force users such as Darth Vader or Vitiate might actually be capable of defeating Emps (pre-Heresy, of course) in one-on-one combat, seeing as they could crush his body inside of his armour by merely thinking about it. This is somewhat countered by Emps' own powers, which are also very powerful, of course, but he can't negate a Force user's attacks through the Warp like he would be able to with a Psyker, as the Force doesn't rely on the Warp (obviously).

      At the height of its time, during the time of the Old Republic (so around the time of the events of KotOR and SWtOR), the Star Wars universe counted a great amount of both Jedi and Sith, which, if merged together, might be an army capable of taking on the full one million Space Marines, what with the Force and Lightsabers and such.

      Then again, Warhammer does have Kaldor Draigo, so Star Wars doesn't really stand a chance on the ground anyway.


      Anyway, that's just my two cents. Star Wars could stomp Warhammer in space battles, but is greatly outmatched on the ground. Thanks for reading this little ramble :3

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    • ReDquinox wrote:
      Snip

      Teratons in Star Wars? Ah, so you want to use the wanktastic upper-end calcs that break the setting's internal coherency?

      Well, two can play at that game.

      ‘We should be careful. Any impact from a solid munition going at such velocity could split the planet in two,’ said Shipmaster Javin of the Battle King. ‘We cannot afford to miss.”
      Pharos

      Let's have single random macrocannon shells splitting planets eh?

      Mustering every iota of his concentration, he focused his psychic might into a bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He hurled the bolt at Horus, a lance of power destined for the madmans heart.

      The Emperor's psychic blast against Horus is described as "more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun" and since no Primarch ever shows anything like the level of durability needed to survive even a tiny fraction of such energies we can assume the Vengeful Spirit absorbed most of the force. Since the ship was intact 40K warships can take focused supernova-level energies from the inside. I've never seen a single source describing battles between ships as anything other than extended slugging matches except when one side hilariously outmatches the other, so it seems their shields and armour can take sustained bombardment from such weapons. Sorry, but your teratons just won't cut it.

      Don't ever push me, for as much distaste as I harbour for unnecessary 40K wank, when the real need does arise you should never doubt that I have the will, the sources and the capacity for willful overblown misinterpretation to fulfil it.

      Other than that:

      Stormtroopers and such, while they might individually be better-equipped and more powerful than Guardsmen

      Citation needed, because really, I'd like to see your evidence that the Imperial Stormtroopers who canonically, on screen, miss every shot at a stationary target less than ten metres away can compare to anybody but the lowliest and mookiest of PDF troopers.

      The most powerful asset the Star Wars universe has is the Force-sensitives. Powerful Force users such as Darth Vader or Vitiate might actually be capable of defeating Emps (pre-Heresy, of course) in one-on-one combat, seeing as they could crush his body inside of his armour by merely thinking about it.

      Citation that they can actually do this -before- the Emperor guts them? I have speed quotes on hand, and they are scary.

      At the height of its time, during the time of the Old Republic (so around the time of the events of KotOR and SWtOR), the Star Wars universe counted a great amount of both Jedi and Sith, which, if merged together, might be an army capable of taking on the full one million Space Marines, what with the Force and Lightsabers and such.

      Citation that every random mook Force user was comparable to a Space Marine despite the movies showing us experienced Jedi who weren't even close to that level?

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    • Let's have single random macrocannon shells splitting planets eh?

      "Mark VI Mars Pattern Macrocannon - The most common macrobattery, these Macrocannons are reliable, hard-hitting weapons that fire kilotonne-grade ordnance, mounted along an Imperial warship's dorsal ridge or in a broadside." - literally on the wiki page.

      The Emperor's psychic blast against Horus is described as "more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun" and since no Primarch ever shows anything like the level of durability needed to survive even a tiny fraction of such energies we can assume the Vengeful Spirit absorbed most of the force. Since the ship was intact 40K warships can take focused supernova-level energies from the inside. I've never seen a single source describing battles between ships as anything other than extended slugging matches except when one side hilariously outmatches the other, so it seems their shields and armour can take sustained bombardment from such weapons. Sorry, but your teratons just won't cut it.

      Nice how you let out the part where it said that it was directed at Horus' heart. No one said the blast went any further past that, so that's just speculation. Let's also not forget that such phrases employ artistic freedom.

      Citation needed, because really, I'd like to see your evidence that the Imperial Stormtroopers who canonically, on screen, miss every shot at a stationary target less than ten metres away can compare to anybody but the lowliest and mookiest of PDF troopers.

      That's called plot armour - they are actually far more accurate than they are portrayed in the films. As said by Ben Kenobi in in A New Hope: "And these blast points, too accurate for Sand People. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

      The standard-issue E-11 is also more effective than a Lasgun: a Lasgun shot, while capable of snapping your bones and potentially rupturing organs, can hardly penetrate armour, while the E-11 has shown to be able to blast chunks of metal to bits.

      Citation that they can actually do this -before- the Emperor guts them? I have speed quotes on hand, and they are scary.

      Read up a bit more on the Emperor's speed. Yeah, I rescind my statement.

      Citation that every random mook Force user was comparable to a Space Marine despite the movies showing us experienced Jedi who weren't even close to that level?

      Jedi and Sith aren't "random Force user mooks", they're highly trained and disciplined warriors. Also, I don't see a Space Marine being able to resist having its insides crushed by the Force.

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    • Jedi and sith need to be in the vincinity of their targets to use the force, which is already ancelled out by pariahs in w40k or by the sheer amount of firepower the 40k world can saturate areas with (basiccally the order 666 times 10 with all that manpower.

      (sidenote: Vader or the Imperator cannot hold a candle to empsas they do not employ the force on the daily scale of emps.

      Next point : Ship wanking: cool executioners, problem 1: the Star Wars Imperium had 4 of them prior to Endor, one was left afterwards and as far as I recall, there are a couple of Gloriana Class Battleships still out there which eclipse it easily (and let us not get into mobile Star Forts or Phalanx.


      Also look at the measurements of ships and crew for the mainstay of them Imperial Class II Star Destroyer is 2600 meters with up to 47000 men aboard.

      A Standard Lunar Cruiser has ~ 95000 men in it's 5000 meter hull and we have not even gotten into battleships, which are also a plenty.

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    • Jedi and sith need to be in the vincinity of their targets to use the force, which is already ancelled out by pariahs in w40k or by the sheer amount of firepower the 40k world can saturate areas with (basiccally the order 666 times 10 with all that manpower.

      Where'd you get that idea? Vader choked a man who wasn't even on the same starship as him.

      Next point : Ship wanking: cool executioners, problem 1: the Star Wars Imperium had 4 of them prior to Endor, one was left afterwards and as far as I recall, there are a couple of Gloriana Class Battleships still out there which eclipse it easily (and let us not get into mobile Star Forts or Phalanx

      Where'd you get that number from? By the events of RotJ, Executors were commonly found as the flagships of an Imperial fleet. And if we're getting into mobile forts, I can pull out the Death Star.

      Also look at the measurements of ships and crew for the mainstay of them Imperial Class II Star Destroyer is 2600 meters with up to 47000 men aboard. A Standard Lunar Cruiser has ~ 95000 men in it's 5000 meter hull and we have not even gotten into battleships, which are also a plenty.

      Size doesn't even matter when your main weapons systems are about a trillion times as powerful. Also, the Imperial-II was 1600 metres long, not 2600.

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    • You can pull out one death star, I can pull out the Phalanx, the Ramillies, the Rock the blackstones and the likes and still laugh, sidente: you want a cock comparison, okay,

      Sidenote: The Death Star is the only weapon for the Gal Imp. (according to new timeline, +2x eclipse class ships if we go legends)) to be capable of planetary destruction, now look at the IoM with those lovely cyclonic torpedos, which can be carried at least by cruiser sized vessels (if not frigate size ones and frigates can perform exterminatus with lifeeater)

      Aka: you got a worthless slow wanking project versus effectiveness. at least a frigate of the IoM takes more to be killed than a single fighter sized torpedo.

      Vader choked a man he was able to see, who was in a 2 way communication with him (direct line of sight--> which is also the problem of directed energy weapons vs ballistic curves)). and just fyi a Pariah next to that dude would have cancelled out vaders choke and made him a useless bitch.

      (sidenote: the IoM has every now and then access to psykers that can even move whole asteroids by force of will (as seen in "the serpent beneath")

      Source of number= Wookiepedia (Annihilator, Arbitrator, Eclipse, Executor, Ravager), however in the novrl "Aftermath "mentions a total number of 13, however as only ne is in imperial control (others destroyed or taken by pirates (annihilator) and only one in control of the gal imp after the battle of endor

      Compare that to the amount of battleships the IoM has available and you can laugh at SW again.

      (though if I were you, I#d have gone for the eclipse class and not executioner class)

      Size does matter honestly as f.e. it does not matter when it comes to boarding and availability of weapons and when it comes to power. just because your argument is "a trillion times as powerful, which is mroe than a hyperbole), you can only kill a person or destroy a ship once. it matters not wether that force has more power if it is projected and has impacted, most of it is simply added and goes to waste. simple example: as long as your single laser or blaster impulse cannot penetrate multiple targets (which in SW lore does not happen) you waste one shot/person and taking into account stormtrooper rmor not even being proof against sticks and stones (battle of endor) the will have problems with simple auto weapons, let alone lasguns.


      You got me on the size of the imp 2, okay, it is as puny as a IoM frigate and has less crew.. their capital ships are the size of auxilliary vessels.. gg

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    • Guys, please, try to keep up this conversation without profanity. The next message with a swearing word will be deleted. Thank you!

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    • Cool, but the Death Star actually completely destroys the planet, whereas Cyclonic Torpedoes just ignite the atmosphere and crack the planet's crust. Needless to say, the former is more powerful.

      Well there you go, you've given me even more points. The Eclipse-class, as well as the Sovereign-class.

      It also takes a lot more than a single fighter-sized torpedo to blow up the Death Star. It took the Force to actually make the shot land, and on top of that, the tractor beams had been disabled. If they hadn't been, the fighters would've just been yanked into the Death Star's surface.

      Vader doesn't need to see his targets - he simply needs to be aware of their presence and location. But like I said, I already rescinded my statement about Vader vs Emps.

      That's thirteen Executors, and then fleets upon fleets of Imperial-I and II Star Destroyers, Interdictors, Vindicators, Acclamators, Victory-I and IIs, Venators, Precursators, Enforcers, several Eclipses and Sovereigns, etc etc...

      A trillion times is not even a hyperbole. Make the calculation. 50 Teratons is 1.000.000.000.000 (= 1 trillion) times more powerful than 50 (a fair average) Kilotons. Direct all that, times 91 (that's the total amount of Heavy Turbolaser barrels on an Imperial-I), every five seconds, and your 5 km long Lunar is a fried heap of metal. That much power doesn't even allow time for a boarding action.

      "Puny" in the sense that it packs more of a punch than a Battlecruiser? Okay.

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    • ReDquinox wrote:
      "Mark VI Mars Pattern Macrocannon - The most common macrobattery, these Macrocannons are reliable, hard-hitting weapons that fire kilotonne-grade ordnance, mounted along an Imperial warship's dorsal ridge or in a broadside." - literally on the wiki page.

      Ah, exploiting 40K inconsistency to lowball despite the fact that it goes against the thematics of the setting. A classic tactic, but ultimately flawed since you misinterpreted the source.

      Rather than a wiki page, let's have a look at the actual canon source for that.

      Mars Pattern Macrocannon Broadside The most common macrobattery, these are reliable, hard-hitting weapons firing kilo-tonne ordinance, mounted along the vessel's dorsal ridge or in broadside.
      -Rogue Trader Core Rulebook

      Not "kiloton", which would be a measurement of firepower, but "kilotonne", a measurement of weight. I'll quote Guderian2nd's excellent calc from Spacebattles.com on the matter, because I'm tired out from school and don't want to spend my 18th Birthday calculating relativistic kinetic energy.

      *A kilo-tonne is 1000 tonnes of mass, which translates into a million kilograms.
      • Since macrocannons are Direct fire weapons, they have to be at least as fast as the torpedoes, and in order for them to NOT be considered ordnance weapons and 'hit almost instantly', we can safely presume they are several orders of magnitudes faster than torpedoes, perhaps even a significant fraction of the Speed of light(!).
      • All that taken into account, let's assume the shells are 100 times faster than 40k torpedoes. A 40k torpedo goes 10 Void Units(One VU being around 10,000 kms) every strategic turn, and if you read the Starship section of the rulebook carefully you can see it is clearly stated a turn equals around 30 minutes IC.
      • A little bit of calc-ing yourself and you will discover torpedoes travel 56km/s.

      Calcs:

      So, since a torpedo travels around 56km/s, our macro cannon shell will travel 5600km/s, or to be exact, 5,600,000m/s.

      A million kilograms traveling at 5,600,000m/s , using the infamous ½mv^2, has around 1.568e+19 Joules of energy.

      That, in the TNT equivalent scale, is 3.7 gigatons of energy, an averaged, slightly conservative figure.

      Over three gigatons per shell.

      But that's not necessarily relevant; since you're using the wanktastic teraton turbolasers for Star Wars I see nothing wrong with using the wanktastic planet-splitting macrocannons for 40K.

      Nice how you let out the part where it said that it was directed at Horus' heart. No one said the blast went any further past that, so that's just speculation.

      I'll repeat myself: since you're using Teratons for Star Wars I see nothing wrong with using the supernova ship durability for 40K. I'd do exactly the same for Mass Effect fanboys trying to use Virmire nuke scaling or Halo fanboys trying to use teraton MACs.

      That's called plot armour - they are actually far more accurate than they are portrayed in the films.

      "Plot armour" or "plot-induced stupidity" isn't an argument. If you want to claim Stormtroopers are capable of better marksmanship then show me some visuals or quotes from canon* sources to back this up.

      • Either Legends or Disney canon, I personally am not bothered, though given your preference for wanktastic turbolaser calcs I should probably expect the former.
      As said by Ben Kenobi in in A New Hope: "And these blast points, too accurate for Sand People. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

      That doesn't tell us anything except in relative terms. It could easily mean that Stormtroopers despite their crappy accuracy are still better than Sand People, which is in line with the fact that Stormtroopers consistently display comically bad marksmanship.

      The standard-issue E-11 is also more effective than a Lasgun: a Lasgun shot, while capable of snapping your bones and potentially rupturing organs, can hardly penetrate armour, while the E-11 has shown to be able to blast chunks of metal to bits.

      A lasgun power cell can be recharged from damn-near any source of energy, including sunlight, or in a pinch throwing it on a campfire. What's the logistical footprint of an E-11?

      The lasgun fires a proper laser beam which travels at the speed of light, whereas the E-11's bolts can be tracked by the naked eye.

      There's more to the efficacy of a weapon than just the number of joules it puts out.

      Jedi and Sith aren't "random Force user mooks", they're highly trained and disciplined warriors.

      Not helping your case.

      Also, I don't see a Space Marine being able to resist having its insides crushed by the Force.

      And I don't see how the Jedi, who don't always succeed at deflecting Blaster bolts slower than bullets, will be able to react to the much faster Space Marines. True, there's that incident of Obi-Wan blocking bullets with a lightsaber but that's very much an outlier from what I've seen.

      Cool, but the Death Star actually completely destroys the planet, whereas Cyclonic Torpedoes just ignite the atmosphere and crack the planet's crust. Needless to say, the former is more powerful.

      Cyclonic torpedoes can be launched from any Imperial warship.

      Well there you go, you've given me even more points. The Eclipse-class, as well as the Sovereign-class.

      How many of each of these were built?

      It also takes a lot more than a single fighter-sized torpedo to blow up the Death Star. It took the Force to actually make the shot land, and on top of that, the tractor beams had been disabled. If they hadn't been, the fighters would've just been yanked into the Death Star's surface.

      Good thing 40K strikecraft are much faster than SW strikecraft and can just blast away huge portions of the Death Star's surface with their vastly superior firepower. That is is anyone actually opts for a fighter assault instead of just shelling it with capital ships from a few AU away.

      Vader doesn't need to see his targets - he simply needs to be aware of their presence and location.

      Citation needed. When he killed Ozzel he had indirect line of sight on him via the viewscreen. Every other source I've seen has displayed him only using the Force in direct line of sight. If you have a citation that he can project the Force beyond his direct or indirect visual range I'd like to see it.

      That's thirteen Executors, and then fleets upon fleets of Imperial-I and II Star Destroyers, Interdictors, Vindicators, Acclamators, Victory-I and IIs, Venators, Precursators, Enforcers, several Eclipses and Sovereigns, etc etc...

      Citation on exact numbers?

      A trillion times is not even a hyperbole. Make the calculation. 50 Teratons is 1.000.000.000.000 (= 1 trillion) times more powerful than 50 (a fair average) Kilotons.

      Citation on the fifty teratons you keep bandying about?

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    • A kiloton is also a measure of weight. It's the amount of TNT it would take to equal the power output. A kilotonne and a kiloton are literally the same thing, but they're just spelled in British English and American English respectively.

      The supernova ship durability would literally turn any shipboard weapon in WH40k useless. Kilotons or gigatons, Macrocannons would have about as much effect on a starship as a flea bite on an elephant, and Nova Cannons would do nothing more than scorch dirt off the hull.

      Want some physical evidence? Here's the opening scene from A New Hope (skip to 3:40). There's rebel soldiers dropping left and right. Once again: plot armour. They fire quite accurately in any situation that doesn't involve plot figures. Especially considering the fact that many of them are Clone Troopers, which have always proven to be skilled marksmen.

      E-11 power packs last for several hundreds of shots before running out, and can be found in large supply. And dodging a blaster bolt is still going to be a pain in the bum, friend. On top of that, with the way Lasguns work, even Stormtrooper armour, which can only stop one or two blaster bolts, could easily protect you.

      How is that not helping my case, exactly?

      When Jedi start using their powers in a way that doesn't just look good on screen, that's when they can defeat Space Marines. Now, seeing as this matchup wouldn't be film material, they most probably use their abilities in the most effective manner available, which in this case is crushing the bodies of the Astartes inside of their power armour.

      Pretty much every capital ship in Star Wars is outfitted with Assault Concussion Missiles. Seeing as you don't appear to be quite familiar with Star Wars at all, I'll explain to you that these missiles are capable of knocking out a Star Destroyer in two or three hits. When taking into account that a Star Destroyer's shield generators can withstand large amounts of Heavy Turbolaser fire, I shouldn't need to explain to you what destructive effects they could bring. Hell, considering the power output their explosions would have, they might even be better at destroying planets than Cyclonic Torpedoes are.

      A couple of dozens, each.

      You can't outrun a tractor beam. Also, considering how the Death Star is essentially impervious to Turbolaser fire, how exactly are you going to destroy it with weapons that are less powerful?

      Vitiate could sap an entire planet of all life. Needless to say, he couldn't look at the other side of the planet while he was doing so, yet he still managed to sap that part too.

      Nearly 25000 Imperial-I Star Destroyers alone. Seeing as Vindicators are far more common than the Imperial-I, that number can be easily be doubled or even tripled for them. There's no concrete numbers outside the Imperial-I, but eventually there were so many Imperial-IIs that they could replace many of the Imperial-Is, so I'd say there are about two-thirds as many of those as there are Imperial-Is. Venators are old ships from back in the days of the Republic, but of course many of those are lost. Yet, they were the mainstay starship of the Republic Navy, and the Republic Navy had control over several hundreds of thousands of ships, so I'd say there are about 10000 of those left. The remaining ones are less common ships, I'd estimate 1000-2000 for each.

      I cba to write out the entire thing for you, but here's someone who already did. And oh hey, look at that, I was actually underestimating the Turbolasers in both power output and firing speed.

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    • What about the Planet-Killer? Does it and the Death Star match?

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    • In terms of power, I think it at least equals the DSI (though I'm not sure about the DSII). However, the Planet Killer is far smaller (obviously). While this means that it doesn't have the several thousands of smaller weapons the Death Star has, it does mean it's much more agile, and it can't be targeted by the DSI, as it can only target planets and other large stationary objects, meaning that between the Planet Killer and the DSI, the Planet Killer would definitely win.

      Not so sure about the DSII, though. Not only can it target starships, it also has a faster firing speed. I'm not entirely sure how the Planet Killer's cannon works, but I think in that case, the DSII would be more effective, especially if you count in the shield generator.

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    • Zixes
      Zixes removed this reply because:
      Profanity
      07:06, September 22, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Weight isn't energy, but a Kiloton/kilotonne (and Megaton, Gigaton, etc) is a measure of power in the sense that it's the amount of TNT required to create an explosion with the same power output. Like I said.

      No, it isn't.

      Clone Troopers were not in any sense easily replacable. It took several years (nine, I believe) before a new batch was battle-ready; only two batches were ever produced for the Republic Army. Replenishing an army with conventional recruits would've been far easier. Also, blasters do have a kinetic impact.

      No it doesn't, it cracks the crust. The force of the explosion can destabilise the core, though. You can't crack the mante and the core of a planet, though, as both are liquid.

      Sidenote: whether or not there is a need is irrelevant, because that's just how it is. Also, tens of thousands of Venators and the like*.

      Yes they do. Read up on blasters, they have kinetic impact. A Turbolaser shot, as evidenced in The Empire Striker Back, can vaporise an asteroid and still keep going like nothing happened. And besides, that "simple metal slug" can't even penetrate the shields of a Star Wars ship.

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    • 1. the metal slug van overload the shields of a ship, otherwise they f.e. would not have to do lightspeed calculations as it would not matter then wether thry came out in a sun or inside a planet/asteroid.if kinetic impacts where no problem, why would you evade asteroids if you got shields, why would ramming still be an issue

      (sidentoe: I cannot really find any source for personal energy shields on SW, it ain't w40k or Dune.

      2. still replaeable

      3. difference between kinetic impatc and secondary effets.. the kinetic impact is the direct force or blunt trauma, whereas a blaster (which operates under the same principles as a laser weapon (wookiepedia, blaster article) will heat up particles and can thus offer a kinetic effect by heating up materials with different melting/boiling points and hence directed particle movement can happen (reactive armor fe.) and the first law of physics applies. 

      (sidenote: plot things like bleeding caused by heat damage, amusing and rather impossible) 

      3. compare the level of expertise and their fabrication to soldier training in the gal Imp, 9 years of constant focussed training does offer better products, that all go through the same regimen, the same standards.. they are manufactured, not trained, hence yes: by definition easily replaceable and interchangeable.


      You do not get the mass argument now, do you... 

      The SW galactic empire never had to fight on the scale that the IoM is regularly engaged all the time. 

      1. they are not as unified

      2. their total production is not geared towards conflict/output of weapons and the likes, whereas in the IoM everything is ultimately geared towards production of military goods.

      3.As comparison: the sole manufacturer of all gal imp star destroyers is Kuat Drive yards, a company located in one system around one planet. (and we should not get into a time debate with the ~30-50 years gal imp or republic versus 10k+ in sw

      You really want to compare that to all the forgeworlds and big shipyards in w40 k, heck even a non civilised world produced a cruiser in w40k lore (took them ages but still)

      Sry but from many standpoints SW simply has not the material to actually put a dent in w40k.

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    • 1. Because it's annoying for the crew if your ship is constantly shaking thanks to the impacts.

      2. Not any more replacable than regular soldiers. Quite the opposite, in fact. Clone Troopers were born and raised to fight, and as such are far more skilled soldiers than non-Clones in the Republic Army. It's far harder to replace such an asset than a standard draftee from some random planet, as it takes a decade before you can get a new one, instead of a couple of months.

      3. Except they obviously don't work like lasers at all. It doesn't even say so on the wiki page. It only says that the terms are often used interchangably, as they're both glowy particle beams.

      PS: Things don't bleed when hit by blaster shots, unless they are shot in the head or something (which turns half their skull into a gory mess). And of course it's impossible, it's science fiction. The most core element of sci-fi is that there is physically impossible technology.

      As for all this:

      1. Irrelevant

      2. Irrelevant

      3. Irrelevant

      It is how it is, and whether or not it makes sense doesn't matter. Star Wars's Imperial Navy simply has more ships than WH40k's.

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    • come back when ou actually do have some arguments that you can back up with canon and reasoning, no point having a disussion with somebody who does not even have the skills to participate.

      "it's how it is" is a very very eloquent line of reasoning,if yer talking to a 2 year old, that simply does not cut it here.

      If the core if sci fi was scientificcally impossible technology, then you have not understood science fiction at all. it tends to represent the technology capabilities at the moment  (go look f.e. for Brennon Braga on writing sci fi or take  Halderman or Lem or many many other author [heck if we look at SEW and W40k  the Watrp is a thing working on paralel universe theory explaining ftl) ^^)(sidenote, you were the one bringing up calculators,and kilotonnes....

      so trying that route if it suits you and denying it when it does nto suit you is pretty poor strategy.

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    • The supernova ship durability would literally turn any shipboard weapon in WH40k useless. Kilotons or gigatons, Macrocannons would have about as much effect on a starship as a flea bite on an elephant, and Nova Cannons would do nothing more than scorch dirt off the hull.

      So you recognise that it breaks the setting's internal coherence. Now I wonder if you'll see that teraton Star Wars ships do the same.

      Want some physical evidence? Here's the opening scene from A New Hope (skip to 3:40). There's rebel soldiers dropping left and right. Once again: plot armour. They fire quite accurately in any situation that doesn't involve plot figures. Especially considering the fact that many of them are Clone Troopers, which have always proven to be skilled marksmen.

      I repeat myself: "plot armour" or "plot-induced stupidity" is not an argument. And congrats, you've found one source that's contradicted by almost every other display of Stormtrooper marksmanship.

      E-11 power packs last for several hundreds of shots before running out, and can be found in large supply.

      Much like a lasgun power cell then, except I've seen no evidence that it can be recharged by leaving it out on a hot day.

      And dodging a blaster bolt is still going to be a pain in the bum, friend.

      Difficult to dodge at short range, yes. Its maximum effective range will be shorter than a lasgun's.

      On top of that, with the way Lasguns work, even Stormtrooper armour, which can only stop one or two blaster bolts, could easily protect you.

      I can't seem to find any quotes on lasgun power right now so I'll give you this for now.

      How is that not helping my case, exactly?

      Because you're pointing out that the most skilled and experienced Force users are still in no way comparable to Space Marines, save for perhaps Jedi/Sith combat precog (which is evidently not 100% reliable because they can still be threatened by non-Force users)

      When Jedi start using their powers in a way that doesn't just look good on screen, that's when they can defeat Space Marines. Now, seeing as this matchup wouldn't be film material, they most probably use their abilities in the most effective manner available, which in this case is crushing the bodies of the Astartes inside of their power armour.

      That's not how it works. They get the capabilities and competence they show on screen or on page. Actually show me a canon source of Force Users crushing enemies inside their armour or don't make the claim that they can.

      Seeing as you don't appear to be quite familiar with Star Wars at all

      Big words from someone who's probably using the damned Incredible Cross Sections as a source given their preferred firepower calcs. You know that book was written by a fanboy who specifically wanted to win these sorts of debates, and did the Star Wars fandom a great disservice by discarding respect for the setting's internal coherency in favour of biggatons?

      I'll explain to you that these missiles are capable of knocking out a Star Destroyer in two or three hits. When taking into account that a Star Destroyer's shield generators can withstand large amounts of Heavy Turbolaser fire, I shouldn't need to explain to you what destructive effects they could bring. Hell, considering the power output their explosions would have, they might even be better at destroying planets than Cyclonic Torpedoes are.

      How fast do these missiles accelerate? What's their maximum velocity?

      A couple of dozens, each.

      Citation please? I'm familiar with Eclipse and Eclipse II but not any further ships of that class, and I've never seen any actual numbers for the Sovereigns. What's your source for there being a few dozen of each?

      You can't outrun a tractor beam.

      You can if the projector can't actually track you and given that it was designed to target Star Wars ships I doubt it'll be able to aim at 40k strikecraft or missiles.

      With the missile cluster now only a hundred kilometres and scant seconds away, the Bellerophon activated its final anti-ordnance defences, the logic engines feeding targeting co-ordinates and firing solutions through to these last-ditch automated defences. A gridwork of multilaser turrets, autocannon batteries, plasma throwers and flechette launchers studded the outer hull of the Bellerophon and these activated now, throwing out a short-lived but concentrated curtain of firepower between the vessel and the missile wave.
      -Execution Hour

      Unfortunately this quote doesn't specify how large the missile salvo is or how many of those shots were executed but the fact that the PD guns are mentioned at all indicates that they at least had a chance of intercepting missiles moving at some tens of kilometres per second (this also fits well with the Guderian calcs which suggested torpedoes at 56km/s). And that's a very low showing too, because I'm not feeling cruel enough to break into the relativistic feats right now.

      Also, considering how the Death Star is essentially impervious to Turbolaser fire, how exactly are you going to destroy it with weapons that are less powerful?

      Impervious to sub-kiloton weapons with range shorter than mid 20th-century wet-navy vessels? Not impressed.

      Vitiate could sap an entire planet of all life. Needless to say, he couldn't look at the other side of the planet while he was doing so, yet he still managed to sap that part too.

      Vitiate isn't Vader.

      Nearly 25000 Imperial-I Star Destroyers alone. Seeing as Vindicators are far more common than the Imperial-I, that number can be easily be doubled or even tripled for them. There's no concrete numbers outside the Imperial-I, but eventually there were so many Imperial-IIs that they could replace many of the Imperial-Is, so I'd say there are about two-thirds as many of those as there are Imperial-Is. Venators are old ships from back in the days of the Republic, but of course many of those are lost. Yet, they were the mainstay starship of the Republic Navy, and the Republic Navy had control over several hundreds of thousands of ships, so I'd say there are about 10000 of those left. The remaining ones are less common ships, I'd estimate 1000-2000 for each.

      I cba to write out the entire thing for you, but here's someone who already did. And oh hey, look at that, I was actually underestimating the Turbolasers in both power output and firing speed.

      That guy's source seems to be Fractalsponge, who explicitly referred to the ICS for his numbers when designing his ships. Here's something to keep in mind: Curtis Saxton's masturbatory fantasies that contradict basically every other source in the franchise are not reliable.

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    • Wow this is STILL going? xD

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    • come back when ou actually do have some arguments that you can back up with canon and reasoning, no point having a disussion with somebody who does not even have the skills to participate. "it's how it is" is a very very eloquent line of reasoning,if yer talking to a 2 year old, that simply does not cut it here.

      So, what, we're going to debate whether or not things make sense even though they're established facts within the universe?

      If the core if sci fi was scientificcally impossible technology, then you have not understood science fiction at all. it tends to represent the technology capabilities at the moment (go look f.e. for Brennon Braga on writing sci fi or take Halderman or Lem or many many other author [heck if we look at SEW and W40k the Watrp is a thing working on paralel universe theory explaining ftl) ^^)(sidenote, you were the one bringing up calculators,and kilotonnes.... so trying that route if it suits you and denying it when it does nto suit you is pretty poor strategy.

      Aaand... Spaceships with massive blaster cannons and planet-breaking missiles are things our technology is capable of, then?

      PS: Blasters being scientifically impossible has nothing to do with power outputs, which can still be calculated just as well.

      So you recognise that it breaks the setting's internal coherence. Now I wonder if you'll see that teraton Star Wars ships do the same.

      Oh really now? Well, pray tell, how do Teraton-power Turbolasers break the coherence? We know they're capable of vaporising asteroids without effort. We know they can turn an entire town into glass with one shot from orbit (without even spreading the power, like an explosion would). We know that the starships have a ridiculous amount of power hooked up to their shield generators (the Executor-class has an output similar to that of a medium star connected to its shields). Where does the coherence break?

      Big words from someone who's probably using the damned Incredible Cross Sections as a source given their preferred firepower calcs. You know that book was written by a fanboy who specifically wanted to win these sorts of debates, and did the Star Wars fandom a great disservice by discarding respect for the setting's internal coherency in favour of biggatons?

      That's cool. See how much power it takes to vapourise an asteroid the way they did in ESB, and you will find that it is somewhere in the Petajoules.

      How fast do these missiles accelerate? What's their maximum velocity?

      No clue. Apparently, fast enough to avoid point-defence fire.

      Citation please? I'm familiar with Eclipse and Eclipse II but not any further ships of that class, and I've never seen any actual numbers for the Sovereigns. What's your source for there being a few dozen of each?

      Whoops. Meant to say a couple and a dozen or so, each. But now that I think of it, I may have confused the Sovereign with the Executor at some point in time. Nevermind that, then :3

      You can if the projector can't actually track you and given that it was designed to target Star Wars ships I doubt it'll be able to aim at 40k strikecraft or missiles.

      That's not even how tractor beams work; they're aimed in a general direction, after which they pull in ships from that direction. When said ships get pulled in close, they can then move them in any way they like.

      Impervious to sub-kiloton weapons with range shorter than mid 20th-century wet-navy vessels? Not impressed.

      You mean triple-digit teraton weapons?

      Vitiate isn't Vader.

      Vader is stronger in the Force than Vitiate.

      That guy's source seems to be Fractalsponge, who explicitly referred to the ICS for his numbers when designing his ships. Here's something to keep in mind: Curtis Saxton's masturbatory fantasies that contradict basically every other source in the franchise are not reliable.

      I'm going to once again point out that it takes a stupidly high amount of power to vapourise an asteroid.

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    • Oh really now? Well, pray tell, how do Teraton-power Turbolasers break the coherence? We know they're capable of vaporising asteroids without effort. We know they can turn an entire town into glass with one shot from orbit (without even spreading the power, like an explosion would).

      The asteroid vaping obviously refers to the asteroid field scenes in ESB. Which gets you megatons at best, see below.

      Not seen the town glassing thing, do you have a link to that?

      We know that the starships have a ridiculous amount of power hooked up to their shield generators (the Executor-class has an output similar to that of a medium star connected to its shields).

      Citation needed.

      Where does the coherence break?

      Let's look at le Thermal Oscillator scene from TFA.

      We see the X-Wings unloading Proton Torpedoes, an anti-capship weapon that allows fighters to maintain relevance against capital ships. I'm unfortunately not knowledgeable enough to do an actual calculation but just eyeballing I'm dubious that those explosions are even in the range of some tens of tons of TNT.

      Some EU material to spice things up:

      Throughout the Trioculus affair , the New Republic was engaged in a protracted military campaign for possession of Milagro, a world located at a key hyperspace junction. The Empire was prepared to lay waste to Milagro rather than allow the Rebels access to its manufacturing facilities. Following three months of exhausting clashes between AT-AT walkers and the New Republic Army, the defeated Imperials slagged the planet's surface with a withering orbital bombardment, then fled.

      Sunlight ripples across a sea of shimmering glass. Glass that had once been part of iridescent domes, towering minarets, soaring archways, vertical towers, and all the other structures that constitute a city. A city reduced to a sea of manmade lava, as Imperial laser cannon carved swathes of destruction through the once-beautiful metropolis. The resulting slag was thicker where buildings had been clustered and thinner out toward the suburbs, where the military base had been established.

      The past could still be seen, on a hill where a nearly translucent temple glittered with emerald beauty, on a rise where a half-melted statue stretched a hand toward the heavens, and out on the silicone plain where isolated groups of dwellings remained untouched.
      Dark Forces 3: Jedi Knight

      Melting an entire city sounds impressive at first but we have no time frame and no indication of the volume of material involved, it could've been single shots from gigaton weapons or days of pounding from sub-kiloton weapons.

      Actually, consider the following: the Imps were denying resources to the enemy. They'd already lost the ground war. They had absolutely no reason to hold back in the bombardment of Miraglo. It stands to reason that they'd be firing at maximum power. Yet where are the holes hundreds of kilometres deep punched into the crust? Why did they carve "swathes of destruction" and leave a sea of magma instead of just causing the whole city to outright vanish from a near miss tens of kilometres away? Not seeing no teratons here.

      That's cool. See how much power it takes to vapourise an asteroid the way they did in ESB, and you will find that it is somewhere in the Petajoules.

      I've seen that calc. Looking it up again I see 31 petajoules at the high end. Since 1 ton of TNT = 4.184 gigajoules we can see that this comes out to a little under 7.5 megatons of TNT. In 40K terms that's on the order of what you want to fight a shielded Titan using sensible calcs, not what you want to actually fight a 40K warship.

      No clue. Apparently, fast enough to avoid point-defence fire.

      Considering the quality of point-defence weaponry in Star Wars that isn't a very high bar to clear.

      Vader is stronger in the Force than Vitiate.

      Citation needed. Can you actually show Vader performing feats of force power on the same scale and magnitude as Vitiate?

      ---

      On another note, let's have a totally different setting, several in fact, that answers the OP's request:

      • The original space opera, EE Smith's Skylark quartet.
      • Skylark's younger cousin, the Lensman series.
      • Red Flag's War of the Krork (a long-running empire builder quest which uses 40K as its template but has IMHO significantly better worldbuilding and background than canon 40K).
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    • The asteroid vaping obviously refers to the asteroid field scenes in ESB. Which gets you megatons at best, see below. Not seen the town glassing thing, do you have a link to that?

      You literally quoted it yourself.

      Citation needed.

      Step 1. Open Wookieepedia.
      Step 2. Read the article for the Executor-class Star Dreadnought.
      Step 3. Be enlightened.

      Let's look at le Thermal Oscillator scene from TFA. We see the X-Wings unloading Proton Torpedoes, an anti-capship weapon that allows fighters to maintain relevance against capital ships. I'm unfortunately not knowledgeable enough to do an actual calculation but just eyeballing I'm dubious that those explosions are even in the range of some tens of tons of TNT.

      See, here's the thing. Proton Bombs only are used once the shield generators fail or are about to fail. Otherwise they are quite weak.

      Melting an entire city sounds impressive at first but we have no time frame and no indication of the volume of material involved, it could've been single shots from gigaton weapons or days of pounding from sub-kiloton weapons. Actually, consider the following: the Imps were denying resources to the enemy. They'd already lost the ground war. They had absolutely no reason to hold back in the bombardment of Miraglo. It stands to reason that they'd be firing at maximum power. Yet where are the holes hundreds of kilometres deep punched into the crust? Why did they carve "swathes of destruction" and leave a sea of magma instead of just causing the whole city to outright vanish from a near miss tens of kilometres away? Not seeing no teratons here.

      It took three Turbolasers to make a blast you can see from high orbit. I think that should say enough.

      I've seen that calc. Looking it up again I see 31 petajoules at the high end. Since 1 ton of TNT = 4.184 gigajoules we can see that this comes out to a little under 7.5 megatons of TNT. In 40K terms that's on the order of what you want to fight a shielded Titan using sensible calcs, not what you want to actually fight a 40K warship.

      Even though Macrocannons only have kiloton-grade power and are still considered hard-hitting?

      Citation needed. Can you actually show Vader performing feats of force power on the same scale and magnitude as Vitiate?

      Any random piece of Star Wars media can tell you that Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Force user ever. He was literally borne of Midichlorians. Unless that was all a blatant lie, Vader is more powerful than Vitiate.


      I'm not really familiar with those universes, though, so that's where I'll drop the ball now. Someone else can take over for me :P

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    • ReDquinox wrote:

      It took three Turbolasers to make a blast you can see from high orbit. I think that should say enough.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNc242mbiUs

      This is the power of a single two-stage torpedo. It is standard amongst the Imperial Navy. Although only a Mechanicus Adept can fire it. Though they are about as common as engineers on any ship.

      Also in the book: Rynn's World an fortress was destroyed by a surface to air torpedo. This is probably the weakest of those torpedoes, considering the fact the are just used as AA. This happens again in the Book Hydra Cordatus. A fortress that was built to withstand orbital bombardment was also destroyed by a surface to air torpedo.

      And then another book, Vengeful Spirit, explains how traitors hijacked Orbital defence platforms and used these torpedo launchers to kill off an entire planet and its huge garrison.

      These torpedoes can be fired off from another end of a system. I believe it explains that in the Battle of the Phall when the Imperials get ambushed by Petruabo as both sides fired back.

      Vessels in this universe are also as fast of about 3/4s of lightspeed. This is shown in the Book.... Scars is it? Its the first one in the Horus Heresy book that really includes the White Scars Legion. Its shown when the entire white scars fleet of about 400 ships was it? The biggest ships being about 12 kilometers long and the entire fleet scattered, suddenly TURNING ABOUT in FORMATION running STRAIGHT thru a fleet of thier own size which were in full formation themselves. This happened in seconds. And I think it explains this when the Human admiral exclaims to the Primarch.

      Also in this same book Spacemarines are about as "faster then the naked human eye could see" and the Primarchs (Basically what these Space Marines are based off of) are faster then what the eyes of the Space Marines could see.


      Also the maximum range of any ship-to ship weapon besides lances are about 500,000 kilometers. I think Lances have the same "infinite" range of torpedoes but I'll have to check on that.

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    • Step 1. Open Wookieepedia.

      Step 2. Read the article for the Executor-class Star Dreadnought.

      Step 3. Be enlightened.

      Wikis are not valid sources on their own but maybe they'll have a reference pointing out where they actually got that information.

      It took three Turbolasers to make a blast you can see from high orbit. I think that should say enough.

      Not seen that before, what's it from? I'll see if I can't make an extremely rough estimate of the firepower here.

      Even though Macrocannons only have kiloton-grade power and are still considered hard-hitting?

      Cough

      Bright explosions flared on the side of the hulk, round blisters of fire welling up on its rough skin. Those less sophisticated than the adepts called such rounds lava bombs. Each contained a large fusion generator. In the brief moment the fusion generator operated, the bomb generated several gigatons of explosive energy, hotter than the surface of a star.
      -death of integrity
      "Every weapon in the battleship’s arsenal was prepared and oriented down at the surface; torpedo arrays filled with warshots that could atomise whole continents in a single strike, energy cannons capable of boiling off oceans, kinetic killers that could behead mountains through the brute force of their impact. This was only the power of the ship itself; then there was the minor fleet of auxiliary craft aboard it, wings of fighters and bombers that could come screaming down into Dagonet’s atmosphere on plumes of white fire. Swift death bringers that could raze cities, burn nations."​ -Not sure on source unfortunately

      I have more if you want.

      Any random piece of Star Wars media can tell you that Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Force user ever. He was literally borne of Midichlorians. Unless that was all a blatant lie, Vader is more powerful than Vitiate.

      I repeat: Can you actually show Vader performing feats of force power on the same scale and magnitude as Vitiate? Displayed capabilities trump everything else.

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    • I think all we've proven here is that 40k and Star Wars are both really inconsistent in power levels.

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    • StarSword wrote:
      I think all we've proven here is that 40k and Star Wars are both really inconsistent in power levels.

      Honestly, we haven't brought anything new to the table. This has been common knowledge for years. And really, all fiction has this going on to some degree, 40K and SW are just two of those examples where it's more pronounced because of the stories being written by dozens of different authors who have varying senses of scale and different ideas about the specifics of how the setting should work.

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    • Slug gunner fan wrote:

      StarSword wrote:
      I think all we've proven here is that 40k and Star Wars are both really inconsistent in power levels.

      Honestly, we haven't brought anything new to the table. This has been common knowledge for years. And really, all fiction has this going on to some degree, 40K and SW are just two of those examples where it's more pronounced because of the stories being written by dozens of different authors who have varying senses of scale and different ideas about the specifics of how the setting should work.

      Or just plain screw things up. I always like to respond to the guys who say Star Trek could roflpwn Star Wars by pointing to the Lysian command post whose shields could literally be knocked offline by a flashlight, and that the Enterprise had to close to spitting distance before it could fire on it, just to mess with them. Giving actual numbers if you don't know the science to know what they would look like is a good way to make a fool of yourself.

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    • Hello, I hail from /m/. Two sci-fi universes come to mind that could go toe-to-toe with the Warhammer 40k universe I feel would be worth mentioning.

      -The first is the Ultraman universe, dozens of giant monsters are capable of soloing planets and the biggest threats to the average giant monster are Imperator class sized titans and even then giant monsters tend to tank military weapons on a regular basis. The biggest powerhouses' main threats would be the Chaos Gods, the Blackstone Fortresses, the Planet Killer, and maybe the World Engine. Granted most of their advantage in their favor is size.


      -The second is the Aquarion universe, the Aquarion Logos Genesis can erase anything from reality including anything associated with language and that is not counting how its enemies have similar powers and a weaker form of it was able to punch a multiverse eating blackhole to death, making it likely able to solo the chaos gods.

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    • I feel the halo universe is very strong not because UNSC or covenant but because forerunners. They literally had 3 million planets that were under direct control. They built structures that dwarf pretty much every other structure I know of. They built shields that would cover and protect large portions of space. They made planets to make other planets which can be converted to make ships that are many kilometers long which were considered medium size to them. They had many superweapons that could kill all life in the galaxy with a single shot. They had trillions upon trillions of people along with the most advanced AI (I know of in any sci if universe) that con controlled millions of ships in battle with pricision. The forerunners ground forces had billions if not trillions of soldiers with advanced weapons and very advanced armor. The forerunners had armor ratings from 1-18 depeonding on how much protection it gave to infantry and master chefs armor would of fell on a level 2 on that scale. I don't know how good master chefs armor is compared to Space Marines armor but I would say space marines armor isn't much better than master chefs armor. The forerunners have unmatched fleet capabilities with unmatched speed and precision moving across the universe very quickly. They also have close to as much manpower as Imperium of man but with better armor. Lastly the forerunners had unmatched manufacturing capabilities with thousands of world created to manufacture millions of ships. My opinion the forerunners are one of if not the most powerful sci of faction ever.

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    • 67.0.52.197 wrote:
      I feel the halo universe is very strong not because UNSC or covenant but because forerunners. They literally had 3 million planets that were under direct control. They built structures that dwarf pretty much every other structure I know of. They built shields that would cover and protect large portions of space. They made planets to make other planets which can be converted to make ships that are many kilometers long which were considered medium size to them. They had many superweapons that could kill all life in the galaxy with a single shot. They had trillions upon trillions of people along with the most advanced AI (I know of in any sci if universe) that con controlled millions of ships in battle with pricision. The forerunners ground forces had billions if not trillions of soldiers with advanced weapons and very advanced armor. The forerunners had armor ratings from 1-18 depeonding on how much protection it gave to infantry and master chefs armor would of fell on a level 2 on that scale. I don't know how good master chefs armor is compared to Space Marines armor but I would say space marines armor isn't much better than master chefs armor. The forerunners have unmatched fleet capabilities with unmatched speed and precision moving across the universe very quickly. They also have close to as much manpower as Imperium of man but with better armor. Lastly the forerunners had unmatched manufacturing capabilities with thousands of world created to manufacture millions of ships. My opinion the forerunners are one of if not the most powerful sci of faction ever.

      Then the Flood happened. And of course there were the Halo Rings Superweapon but then again, the Flood. 

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    • Would answering this be a necro?

      Otherwise, I'd add the Arm and the Core from Total Annihilation. Theyd just marvel at being thrown in a galaxy that still has tons of ressources and resume fighting each other, the rest of 40K blgetting wiped out as an afterthought.

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    • Yes, it's a necro.

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    • I don't really give a damn if this is Necro I still like me a versus thread

      40k gets completely annihilated by the Xelee. A single night fighter would quite literally solo the 40k universe. The Xeelee themselves are beings made up of anomalies in time and space making that unkillable by conventional means. That and a Bolter is cute compared to a Xeelee weapon. It fire a small galaxy into your chest and that galaxy expands inside you eventually creating heat death inside of you. No amount of armour can protect you from that.

      Star Wars EU stomp with Abeloth shaking 40k out of existence.

      Ancient Halo stomps. Forerunners rape the entire 40k universe with a huge tech advantage. Their basic weapons use suppressor tech which doesn't actually kill you like a normal weapon, it sends signals to your brain turning it off. Precursers devolve the 40k universe en masse

      Guyver universe. Guyvers can't be killed because the control chip only reacts to a Zoa or a Guyver. You can obliterate a Guyver but chip will completely heal the host and suit within a few seconds. High tier Guyvers are packing anti matter blades and can condense a black hole into a small projectile. All Guyvers in exceed gigantic fire quasars from their chests.

      SCP God stomps. The scarlet King looks at 40k and wipes it out. 682 literally can't be destroyed by any means. 343 is literally God. 001 Doesn't even need to move and it can obliterate multiple targets at once.

      Star Trek also stomps. Q rewrites 40k science,rendering their ships and weapons and even marines useless.

      And although it may not be sci-fi 40k gets literally God stomped by the elder scrolls. Anu waves his hand and 40k never happened. The Numidium says NO to 40k. GodHead forgets what 40k even is and destroys it. Satakal eats the 40k reality. Alduin the time eater eats 40k completely, including all time lines, realities, dimensions, mortals, gods etc. pelenial whitestrake gets mildly annoyed with 40k and starts destroying everything in his way. Essentially if 40k was to ever fight the elder scrolls Sithis would get a huge bump in visitors

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    • Oh what the heck, just to add fuel to the fire,

      - The Xelee weapons create a whole new galaxy in one shot,okay, that’s an all you can eat buffet for the C’tans/Star Gods which will only grow stronger. A being that feeds on the energy of suns would likely suck a Xelee dry as well. Or no need to involve gods, Necron-artefacts that control time or a simple Stasis Field to trap the Xelee and they are dealt with.

      - In conventionnal warfare, 40k would smash the Star Wars-universe(the topic has been discussed way too many times). You want to bring gods to the fight, well welcome Khorne the Blood God, a deity powered by bloodshed, war and hatred. His disgust of psykers is strong enough that even his lower daemons are immune to your telekinesis power and other Force-infused abilities. Against Khorne himself Abeloth’s power would be useless and her own hatred of the foe would empower Khorne. Not to mention that as War incarnated Khorne would knock her out  1-vs-1 real quick.

      - Forerunners not quite killing you, good, that means the cheptel of living souls which powers the Warp will not tarry and Badaboom! Daemon Legions and Chaos Gods coming to get you. Or the Necron with their power to shut down all technology for brief moments. Gauss-beam your molecules into an other dimension and your Forerunners are done for. Plus after the first engagements the Hive Mind will figure out some way to power its Tyranids without using a  primary brain.

      - The Guyvers’ reconstruction of form the perfect playground for Papa Nurgles diseases. An undying host for never ending fun until your Guyvers devolves into a Chaos Spawn or some sort of Plague Daemon.

      - Any god of 40k can corrupt/daemonize an SCP as long they have emotions, even the indestructible one

      - Q is a tough one, but just grab one of the Shards of Erebus or the Anathame speak "Q" and let the weapon figure out how to kill him. Both artefacts continuously re-engineer themselves to kill their designated target and will fight it for you. Against Q, that would imply counteracting his time/space manipulation abilities, one cut and a specifically created poison will kill him, designed to act on the molecular level as long as Q has a body/mass/form it will work. 

      - The Chaos Gods defeated the Old Ones responsible for creating the universe, if the Old Ones are roughly Anu-equivalents then they are no match for the Chaos Gods. Same point as before, if they have emotions you will fuel Chaos and the Chaos Gods, plus Tzeentch probably in the Pool of Eternity or gets warned by Kairos Fateweaver. 

      Let the ranting continue!

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    • Have you read any book from the Xeelee sequence? The galaxy construction is something they put into their hand guns. Xeelee can time travel, Xeelee live inside dark holes, Xeelee night fighters which are above average warships mind you. Tank dimensional collapse easily and even the Xeelee struggle to fight the photino birds so imagine what would happen if the entire Xeelee verse gang banged 40k? Teh c'tan by the way aren't gods they're star eating aliens not heat death tanking gods. I recommend you go and read what the Heath death is because it's the literal end of the universe.

      EU empire fire the galaxy gun into the dark hole at the Milky Way galaxies centre unbalancing it and destroying it, Abeloth is unneeded but can still solo. And the force and the warp are incredibly different. Just because khorne hates pshycic powers doesn't mean that immediately makes him immune to the force. And pray how is a concept like khorne going to fight Abeloth in the first place? Abeloth became the force, this is like saying simply because you hate it you can defy gravity. The force is exactly as its namesake, it's a force. Unfortunately force>>pshycic powers.

      Have you read the forerunner saga? Prometheans are equipped with suppressor weaponry which is the forerunner equivalent of easy to push out. Forerunners are casual solar system busters and the greatest creation of the necrons was the celestial orrery which doesn't even do much else aside from predict the future. The forerunners made a array that annihilates all life in a galaxy with the literal push of a button. The tyranids can't fight the flood as they where during the forerunner-flood war. The flood unlike the tyranids assimilate. When the flood infects something it gains that creatures knowledge, keyminds have the ability to use precurser technology and send you outside of reality. The precursers themselves laugh at the pathetic races of 40k and devolve them back to their primal states as all it takes is a DNA sample of each creature barring humans.

      Nurgle can try to corrupt a Guyver if he wants to but he's not gonna get very far. He can infect the host but the suit will just kill the host and take full control. Nurgle can try to infect a Guyver but once a Guyver has experienced something it learns to counter act that. Nurgle tries once and never again. Hell emps tries to eradicate a Guyver? That Guyver adapts and assimilates that power. Making its host a psyker far surpassing the emperor and the suit itself becomes the same.

      You know that SCP has actual literal God right? SCP-343. Or perhaps you're looking for the scarlet King? A being who's actually doing the job of chaos and the only reason why he hasn't destroyed reality yet is because he's chained to the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Eden. Or maybe you also wanted 079? The casual time warper and real angel?

      Q can continuously keep rewriting the laws of science until it scientifically isn't possible to happen.

      Old ones? Anu level? Bro they don't even come close to being Anu level. Anu can creates universes and realities with a passing thought. And casually defeated his brother Padomay who is a omniverse buster at bare minimum. And again the god head could just kinda forget what 40k is and poof it's gone.

      Same story with Lovecraft. Azathoth just forgets 40k and poof it's gone.

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    • Have you read anything regarding Nurgle? Nurgle has captured the Eldar Mother-Godess and uses her all-healing tears to develop new infections and sicknesses .Nurgle’s poxes and diseases constantly evolve (icluding zombie plague) so it can’t be healed.

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    • You also know that isha whispers healing words to world X with nurgles plagues and heals them anyway right? They can be healed and especially by the Guyver who can learn to adapt to said disease and overcome it 100 fold meaning each of nurgles plagues need to be over 100x stronger then the last. Nurgle can't infect the Xeelee because they aren't organic, they're anomalies and flaws in space time. The black ink that fills in the spots between what makes sense. How does one infect actual God? Or a reality busting demon? And how is Nurgle honestly going to infect the forerunner and keep them that way? They fought a worse infection ( flood ) and the IoM can cure the minor diseases anyway so what's stopping a species like the forerunners from making a cure for the major ones? Or if worse comes to worst why not simply upload their consciousness to the domain again? Nurgle gets chat on by Peryite why would he have a chance of fighting Anu? One of the prime creators of TES? And how is Nurgle going to infect anything with plagues once his biggest source of power ( humanity ) is destroyed by the galaxy gun and he is put into a slumber once more? Or the fact if lovecraft and 40k where in the same universe Nurgle would just be an insignificant speck of Azathoth's imagination

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    • The Flood that nearly destroyed the Forerunners are quite the same as Nurgle’s Rot, in fact Nurgle’s Rot is even more powerful since it has no physical body you could attack. If you follow the lore Nurgle has countless plagues ready to unleash against the galaxy and it’s only his war against the other Chaos God that prevent him from doing so. Since Nurgle is also involved in the creation of the Anathame which can kill EVERYTHING - litterally - Nurgle has the power to infect and destroy your Guyvers. Also Nurgle’s poxes and other diseases don’t need a body to affect you - he simply enjoys it, they are also psychic afflictions like the doubtworms : as soon as you doubt, you are affected and devolve into some sort of frenetic barbarian - which makes him capable of dealing with all non-physical entities.

      Tzeentch on his own is able to defeat almost everything, the combo of the power of the Well of Eternity, Kairo’s abilities (knows all of the past, sees all of the future and all the possibilities of it) and Tzeentch own powers make him unbeatable. Should a threath arise, Tzeentch can manipulate time and space to prevent it, lock you in a pocket dimension, zap you in the warp for the daemons to feed on your soul/psychic energy or transform your body into a mewling Chaos Spawn he can than incinerate, including other gods - from any fictional universe they may be, even your cherished SCP are nothing but more objects to collect and store somewhere in the Impossible Fortress or keep in little bottles as Brainiac did in the DC-multi-verse.

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    • A-so you think a disease is capable of destroying a Guyver? The guys who reform themselves from full molecular deconstruction. And yes, the thousands of plagues! That Kaldor Draigo burned. And you think nurgles rot is worse then the flood? The flood are a parisitic life form that can learn how to use YOUR technology. The flood are at bare minimum are as dangerous as their opponent. In the case of the forerunner-flood war the flood had the primordial with them, allowing them the knowledge of neural physics. Key minds see so large they infect the world itself, down to its very core. Nurgles rot infects the populace and kills them. The flood infects, assimilates and uses.

      Evidence for Tzeentch having these powers? Because if he did why is khorne the powerful of the main pantheon and if Tzeentch could do this why could the emperor fool him as well as the other chaos gods into giving him the knowledge to create the Primarchs? Tzeentch unlike say Akatosh is not a time warper, and kairos fateweaver sees every possible future making his predictions erratic and often untrue.

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    • That’s why Tzeentch has a cabal of 49 Duke of Change siffting through Kairos prophecies, and yes, Tzeentch is a time warper, he sends Lorgar to the future to witness Magnus after the Burning of Prospero, he also sends Ahriman back to the Unification Wars so he may claim one of the artefacts to bind Magnus’ soul-shards back together (The Crimson King).

      Khorne is currently the most powerful Chaos God for three reasons:

      1) As explained before it is Khorne’s hatred of Psykers and magic that render himself and his daemons impervious to psychic powers/magic (Realm of Chaos : Slave to darkness). A Bloodhound gains his immunity to magic because his Iron Collar was infused with a fraction of Khorne’s hate. As for the Black Templars and their "Abhorr the Witch" Khorne’s hate is so absolute that it effectively negates all magical/psychic powers. Since Tzeentch favoured tools are spells but Khorne is immune to it he is ascendant.

      2) Why he occasionnally fights his brothers or mettles in mortal affairs, Tzeentch is not really playing the game. Throughout all Codexes Tzeentch is always described as a schemer that has no obvious plan because his attention is fixed on other realities than only the Warhammer 40k galaxy. (And there are also some parallels with Palace of the Plague Lord)

      3) Khorne’s superiority is intended by GW; he is the God of War, fuelled by hatred and bloodshed "and in the grim darkness of a far future there is only war".

      While what you may say about the effects of the Flood-spores on living organisms might be true and may thus be considered "superior" to Nurgle’s Rot, Nurgle’s plagues, including the Rot are only a tool to a different end: causing enough fear and despair so that the fabric of reality is weakened enough to cause a daemonic incursion. And once daemons are involved the Flood and the Forerunners are no match for them.

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    • But due to the nature of the flood one they simply infect a daemon, since they clearly have a biology shown by the chaos daemons codexes and even the first heretic book. The flood assimilate the properties of the daemons making the warp spawn and never truly able to die. You say the forerunner are no match for daemons when the imperium fights of incursions like every day. The forerunner would rolfstomp the shit out a incursion. And sanguinious whilst tired still snapped a blood thirsters back so what's stopping the far more advanced forerunners from simply shooting it and atomically disassemble them?

      Tzeentch didn't put lorgar into the future he gave lorgar a vision, similar to what he did for Argel Tal in the first heretic. Nothing he did there would effect the world around them if they where to return. The risk of chaotic visions is being seen.

      Khorne is immune to pshycic powers not magic. Magic from TES is drastically different then pshycic powers. TES Magic is based on will power and bringing forth the energies of aitherius, a greater realm of existence. The greater ones will power the more powerful the spell.

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    • 1. a daemon is made up from the stuff of the warp, not any genetic material, and since a daemon can control his form at will, infecting it cannot work. 2. even if you take a biological body, posessed by a daemon, said daemon can shape the body at will, meaning you cannot infect them.  the only thing that works, is destroying the orporeal form and banishing them, but destroying them won#t work. They are principles, thought and emotions made manifest. how would the flood assimilate somehting that does not happen on an elemental level, or a genetic level? 3. in case you did not notice it, Kha'Bandha was merely banished by sanguinius, but once back in the warp suffered no ill effects of the fight, he is still alive and kickng and unaffected by any blows that sanguinius dealt so long ago.

      As for Aetherius, aka the realm of pure magica, being a different dimension from the physical plane of existence,  where the souls go after death (see magic from the sky in skyrim and oblivion and the light and the dark in daggerfall) It is quite funny when you look at the definitions of "the warp" in 40k, as it fits those properties like a glove. You are aware, that psykers in 40k channel warp energies/tap into the warp to do their psyker stuff, controlling those energies with their willpower and proecting them or, if they take too much, get nom'd by them.

      "nothing he did there would affect the world around them" ... weird that ahriman brought back a relic that was needed..... hmmm...

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    • By nothing they did there would affect the world around them I mean when they return from their visions. Nothing is affected ( butterfly effect )

      Pshycic power and magic is still drastically different, and souls don't go to Aitherius itself they go to one of its pocket realms such as Sovrengard. Aitherius itself burns far too much for even a soul to survive in. Considering Meridia's holy artefact Dawnbreaker is forged in Aitherius' fires and it cleaves through the undead easily, even ghosts/souls. The warp is a place of chaos, a place where a six sided die can roll on seven and with it pshycic powers can be equally as erratic and random. Magic is a projection of ones will, no one needing to be sensitive to magic to use it unlike psykers.

      A fair enough point about daemons but whilst the flood may not be to combat them via infection nothing stops the forerunners from doing so. I know you have at least a base knowledge on the forerunners so neithan you especially should know that the forerunners are a far more advanced species then the IoM and would combat their foes even better. Forerunners had more worlds, men and far more destructive weaponry then what the IoM does.

      And may I ask what you're doing here? I thought you hated VS threads with a passion like everyone else on this wiki 😂

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